Tail Docking

[mrs p]

What is a Working dog - one that works to gun, works on land, Police, Field trials, guarding, you can see where this is leading can't you

from the BASC

"From 6th April 2007, it will no longer be legal to have the tail of any dog docked for cosmetic purposes in England. However, following a successful lobbying campaign in March 2006, BASC gained a derogation so that gundogs and certain other working dogs can still have their tails docked, as long as the owner of the puppies and vet have clear reason to believe that this is on welfare grounds, and that certain strict conditions are fulfilled.

Following a debate in the House of Lords there was some confusion surrounding the wording of the regulation, but this has now been sorted out and we are back on track. The House of Commons has already debated and passed the legislation, and the House of Lords will re-address it on March 27th. The objection has been withdrawn and it is not possible to amend the wording. There is no likelihood that it will be voted down.

To qualify a puppy for tail docking, the person taking it to the vet must provide a signed and dated statement together with identification for himself as the owner or representative of the owner, and evidence that the puppy is likely to be used for a specified type of work. Identification types applying to BASC members are detailed below, there are other categories for the Armed Forces, emergency services, HM Prison Service and HM Customs and Revenue:

(vi) evidence that the owner of the dog, or an agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog, will be using the dog for work in connection with lawful pest control;

(vii) a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals;

(viii) a letter from a gamekeeper, a land-occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.

In addition the vet must believe that the dog is not more than five days old and that the dam of the dog is one of the following types:

Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types
Spaniels of any type or combination of types
Terriers of any type or combination of types
Following docking the puppy will be microchipped, and the vet will provide a certificate confirming that all of the requirements of the derogation have been filled. The precise format of the certificate has yet to be decided and will be issued by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

There is concern that it will be difficult for owners to prove that new born pups are destined to be working dogs, but this is addressed by the fact that the owner and vet have reason to believe that the dog is most likely to be used for the lawful shooting of animals or lawful pest control.

The full wording of the regulation can be found on the Office of Public "

from defra
"What kind of evidence do I need to show to prove that my dog will work?
The forms of evidence you can provide are: armed forces identification; emergency rescue identification; police identification; prison service identification; Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs identification; evidence that the dog will be used for lawful pest control; a current shotgun or firearm certificate; or a suitable letter from a suitable person involved in shooting or pest control. More details are available in the Regulations. The types of dog that will be allowed to be docked, and the types of evidence needed, is detailed in further regulations. These are available on the Office of Public Sector Information website."


the law is pretty much watertight on that question

but then again theres no need for any dogs tail to be docked except for human esthetics

how about, if before you were 5 days old, your parents had thought,mmmm maybe theyll burn themselves on the stove or knock into things and break them or climb and fall breaking themselves and costing us money in dr bills and so we'll cut off their limbs to prevent all that. maybe anyone born with additional needs should be sterilised before 5 days old to prevent them carrying on any 'different' genes [ooops i wouldnt have 4 kids then would i ]or the child of an addict or a murderer have a lobotomy before 5 days to somehow to prevent them following in their parents footsteps

docking is as outmoded as dog fighting and cropping and now its illegal the same as they are

however a pointless discussion as the two sides are never going to agree either are wrong or that in some instances it is/nt cruel. interesting to read through though as well as calmly discussed, well done to everyone

 

[Floyds mum]

Sorry for ressurecting an old thread but ive always had strong views on this subject, whole class discussed it at uni lol.

My opinion is that tails docking should be banned completely, full stop.
As for dogs like pointers or spaniels that "need" to have it docked for their work, whats wrong with clipping their tails (in the case of spaniels) they always managed to work before we started to "fiddle" with them. ive met people who say pointers "must" have their tails docked they point in the direction of the game. Other dogs that work in jobs where they could trap their tails, e.g. newfoundlands, collies, working lurchers, retrievers dont have their tails cut off so why other breeds? its purely cosmetic, rottwiellers and dobermans have no "need" to dock their tails.
We used to have a large smooth coated lurcher that had to have part of his tail cut off cos he caught it and when he wagged his tail it split, accidents happen.
Personally i love the look of dogs with undocked tails, rottwiellers, old english sheep dogs etc.

Ive voiced my opinion

 

[Floyds mum]

In the case of tail docking it is clear that:

(a) A dog's tail is not a limb

(B) A dog's tail is not an essential part (for it is patently obvious that a dog can live quite happily without a tail, both physically and emotionally).

(a) What actually classifies as a limb?

(b) A dog uses its tail to balance and communicate to other dogs, so yes it is an essential part. Many dog trainers say this, cesar milan (dog whisperer) and victoria stilwell (its me or the dog). If it was useless then over "evolution" it would have dissapeared wouldnt it?

 

[B13]

My opinion is that tails docking should be banned completely, full stop.

Agreed.

Unless there's an injury, docking of the tail - and worse, ears - should be banned outright.

It wasn't THAT long ago, we docked horses' tails because of 'fashion', thereby taking away a horse's main defense against biting insects.

Sorry, but mutilation of an animal purely for the sake of 'fashion' is SO wrong.

 

[soph_betta]

Ok so here is my point ( im not going to get in to an argument with any one as this is my opinion and experence!)

With most breeds now there is no need for tail docking as they are not used for what they used to be (hunting ect.)

But when it comes to my familys terriers my brother enjoys hunting and is registered to hunt pests i.e.rabbits and rats for farmers as a bunch of rabbits can go through a field and destroy crops and also its to reduce and pervent "Mixi" which is a bad disease and can take days to painfully kill a rabbit.

Our dogs have been docked and this is much safer as if they are hunting and go through barb wire fences ect the tail is the most likely part to get caught and ive seen a friends dog with the tail ripped clean off from a hunt and the dog almost bled to death.

So if the dog is a working dog as some still are and its done properly by a vet ( it should be done in the first 2 days of being born as the dog does not yet have a fully working nervious system to feel anything) then i am compleatly in faviour of it for safty and welbeing of the dog.
If it is just being done for looks then i disagree as there is no need for it at all.
Our dogs are much loved family pets who live with cats, chickens, ducks, a gunnie pig and horses and have never touched any of them as they are highly trained working dogs.

On the point of ear docking this is alot worse as the flap of the ear is to prevent dirt and pests ect getting in to the ears which could cause an infection that could then turn the dog deaf. As for hunting the ear flaps are alot softer and easier healing and if they get nicked, caught or split they repair well as there is no bone structure or major muscels to tear.

This is my point and my experence and I have a right to that if you disagree then thats fine that is your opinion and ill respect yours as you should respect mine.

 

[shelaghfishface]

i thought it was banned?

tho im neither for or against it, years ago i was looking for old english sheep dogs,and considered myself my lucky when i fell upon a local breeder that had just had a beautiful litter of puppies, and more to the point she didnt believe in docking them, - its isnt required for pedigree and whats nicer than a wagging tail? i used to get lots of comments about them both having tails- not all positive, sadly my son developed a chronic allergy to dog and cat hair so i had to rehome them, but when im old and wrinkley (ok ok old`er and more wrinkley) ill have 2 more-(they are fab in pairs,) and will enjoy watching them chasing their tails just like i did before... ok maybe i am against it after all
shelagh xxx

 

[Amerce]

I used to have a lurcher (saluki/whippet cross), gorgeous dog and very excitable, but we had to have his tail docked because he was whip happy.

He damaged his tail so much knocking it on furniture/walls etc, that there was always blood spatter around the place, you can't stop a dog being happy and showing it.

He damaged the nerve ending on it and no matter what we did he would start to nibble on his tail, so to avoid further damage the vet suggested docking it.

Didn't stop him wagging his stub though.

If for health reasons the tail has to be docked then so be it, but I see no reason apart from aesthetics for docking a tail, it ain't natural.

 

[ALW]

I have nothing against tail docking for working dogs (my own GSP is docked although he is worked). I do see both sides of the story, and agree that for those dogs that are not worked then there is no reason to dock the tail and so am glad it is banned. Those who want an out and out ban most have likely never seen a working dog with an infected tail(the tail was later removed to stop the infection). Would it not have been better for this dog to have had its tail docked when it was a puppy.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

In SA, Tail docking and ear cropping also became illegal in around 1998, (up to which time I've never in my life seen a Rottweiller (or Jack Russel) with a long tail..
(even before that time) our vet used to refuse doing any dog older than 1 week old. I however, still see lots of young dogs running around with short tails & I know they were'nt born like that... We have enough other petty crime in this country for anyone to spend energy on policing this, (allthough the fines are quite heavy if you do get caught.

 

[Haych]

well, i was just reading through this, but havent been able to read all 98 pages mind

i personally THINK docked tails look better on rottis and boxers, but BELIEVE it is cruel to do so, unless for health.

an animal usually has an apendage for a reason. and the working dog thing is a crock, what about laradors? they're hunting/working dogs and theyre not docked.

but with health, yeah there is some with painful cracked that never heal, Kev's old dog was like that. He had a great dane that would wag so insessantly (sp) that he would crack open his tail on the tiles and splatter blood everywhere, it took 3-4 operations to finally get it right, to the point he had a stump - or as kev called it - a pasty!

with regards to the mentioned jew claws, i dont doubt they would be painful, as our dogs (simba's) was so deep and imbedded in the bone (but apparently you can get some just literally swinging in the skin). I admit i dod go to have Simba's removed, but simply because he DESPISED them being cut and got upset all the time when you went near them. but as they were so deep we had to leave them.

(sorry if i have repeated stuff said but there is way too much to keep up with!)

just my two cents

 

[Floyds mum]

We had this debate at uni and one of my friends dad has a gshp that has her tail docked because the dog could get injured - but Pointers "point" to where the "game" is,
Jack russels that work (ratting)generally dont give rats the chance to "get them" they will be dead within seconds - the odd bite wound will happen cos they are chasing and killing something, but something ive always wanted to know - why do JRT's have their tails docked? i mean getting very very detailed.
I know i am very opinionated on this subject (my greyhound's best mate is a full rottwieller with tail! )