Swim Bladder Or Whirling Disease? Or Something Else?

[christylee]

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 30 ppm
kH: 40-50
gH: 50-60
Tank size: 46 gallons
Tank stock: 2 bolivian rams, 4 false julii cories, 11 neon tetras, 4 cherry shrimp.
 
I change the water / vac the bottom every Saturday and change about 10 gallons of my 46 gallon tank.

No chemicals or treatments aside from the de-chlorinator.
 
I added the 4 cherry shrimp on Friday and some live plants.
 
I have four false julii cory cats. For a week I had only seen three of them and started to grow worried, I figured one was maybe hiding or had passed and that worried me but I checked the water everyday and nothing spiked. Yesterday during my water change all four came out and were swimming about curiously. Today I noticed one swimming near the surface sort of twirling and struggling to stay there. I immediately checked the water but everything is consistent as usual (same as readings listed above). He fell back down the bottom after a minute and was just laying there, still breathing though. But he keeps trying to reach the surface and is struggling to swim, plus he's upside down!
 
Is this swim bladder disease?

 

[Byron]

Possibly.  This can also occur with certain internal protozoan.  Or from an injury to the fish, such as when netted.
 
I have read that some have this occur and everything is fine, it is a temporary "behaviour," or so they say.  I'm skeptical, but as there really isn't anything you can do, nothing is lost by just leaving the fish alone.  When I have seen this, rarely, the fish never recovers and eventually dies.
 
By the way, nitrate at 30 ppm is high.  Have you looked into this?  Corydoras can be affected by high nitrates, they have an intolerance to any of the nitrogen forms (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  And nitrate above 20 ppm is believed by many of us to be a problem long-term for most fish.
 
Byron.

 

[christylee]

Thanks! Sadly he passed...the other three are doing well still and look healthy. I sort of think this was due to poor acclimation by my boyfriend. Because two died..and he picked up two recently and just dumped them in the tank (I advised him otherwise, he didn't listen, awful).

He also informed yesterday that the guy at my lfs accidentally dropped one on the floor by missing the bag.....

I want to pick up two more but I'll make sure I do it myself so I know everything goes well. As for the nitrates, I have been taking measures to try and knock them down. Water changes haven't been helping all that much. It is odd though. I have a sand substrate and vac is as best as I can. Maybe I can do water changes twice a week and see if that helps. I recently added a bunch of plants hoping that'll lower it a bit.

 

[the_lock_man]

By the way, nitrate at 30 ppm is high.  Have you looked into this?  Corydoras can be affected by high nitrates, they have an intolerance to any of the nitrogen forms (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  And nitrate above 20 ppm is believed by many of us to be a problem long-term for most fish.
 
Byron.

 
I would disagree with you somewhat, there, Byron, I wouldn't worry about nitrate at 30ppm unduly, especially given that my tap water has 40ppm in it (the legal maximum here in the UK is 50ppm)

 

[christylee]

By the way, nitrate at 30 ppm is high.  Have you looked into this?  Corydoras can be affected by high nitrates, they have an intolerance to any of the nitrogen forms (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  And nitrate above 20 ppm is believed by many of us to be a problem long-term for most fish.
 
Byron.

 
I would disagree with you somewhat, there, Byron, I wouldn't worry about nitrate at 30ppm unduly, especially given that my tap water has 40ppm in it (the legal maximum here in the UK is 50ppm)

Ahh! Maybe my tap water has nitrates then. I never thought to test it!

 

[Byron]

 

By the way, nitrate at 30 ppm is high.  Have you looked into this?  Corydoras can be affected by high nitrates, they have an intolerance to any of the nitrogen forms (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).  And nitrate above 20 ppm is believed by many of us to be a problem long-term for most fish.
 
Byron.

 
I would disagree with you somewhat, there, Byron, I wouldn't worry about nitrate at 30ppm unduly, especially given that my tap water has 40ppm in it (the legal maximum here in the UK is 50ppm)
 

 
I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but in doing so in this case you are disagreeing with many far-more experienced aquarists and ichthyologists like Dr. Neale Monks who I believe is a member here.  Dr. Monks has many times advised that nitrates should be no higher than 20 ppm, and in one article he suggested that all cichlids likely develop internal issues with a continual level of 20 ppm nitrates.  On the cichlid site, Marc Ellison writes that nitrates must be kept below 20 ppm, and high nitrates is now believed to be a major cause of Malawi bloat rather than diet alone.
 
There have been few studies on nitrates, as for long most assumed that they didn't matter much.  But that is now seen to be false thinking.  When one considers that all of our basic aquarium fish live in waters that have nitrates so low they are usually not even measurable, and the fish's physiology is designed to function best in such water, it is not too surprising that aquarium fish exposed to nitrate over time develop various problems.  The few scientific studies on nitrates are showing that long-term exposure is a definite risk.  With this evidence, it seems preferable for aquarists to keep nitrates as low as possible, and no higher than 20 ppm.
 

As for human consumption, we must always remember that many things in our drinking water are "safe" for humans but not for fish.  Copper for example; at safe levels for humans (and at the moment I cannot remember what the number is) it will kill fish.  I don't want to get into the human side of nitrate poisoning, but there is now much more evidence of birth defects and other issues being caused by nitrates.  Again I don't know the level, but the point is that if a substance causes such things, it clearly is toxic no matter what the level.
 
Tap water with nitrate above 20 ppm should be treated before it goes in to an aquarium.
 
Byron.

Thanks! Sadly he passed...the other three are doing well still and look healthy. I sort of think this was due to poor acclimation by my boyfriend. Because two died..and he picked up two recently and just dumped them in the tank (I advised him otherwise, he didn't listen, awful).

He also informed yesterday that the guy at my lfs accidentally dropped one on the floor by missing the bag.....

I want to pick up two more but I'll make sure I do it myself so I know everything goes well. As for the nitrates, I have been taking measures to try and knock them down. Water changes haven't been helping all that much. It is odd though. I have a sand substrate and vac is as best as I can. Maybe I can do water changes twice a week and see if that helps. I recently added a bunch of plants hoping that'll lower it a bit.

 
Acclimation if not properly carried out can be fatal to many fish, and here again corys are especially sensitive, so that is a possibility.  And sudden shock by dropping on a hard surface is certainly significant; one of the most humane methods to euthanize fish is to give them a hard knock on the head.  It will kill them instantly.
 
To the nitrates, I was going to ask if you have tested your tap water for nitrate (and ammonia and nitrite too, just to be certain).  I see you mention this in your subsequent post.  Depending what this test turns up, we can consider ways to deal with it.  But if the nitrate is occurring solely within the tank, this is a problem that has to be resolved.  But let's wait for the tap water test results.
 
Byron.

 

[christylee]

Acclimation if not properly carried out can be fatal to many fish, and here again corys are especially sensitive, so that is a possibility.  And sudden shock by dropping on a hard surface is certainly significant; one of the most humane methods to euthanize fish is to give them a hard knock on the head.  It will kill them instantly.
 
To the nitrates, I was going to ask if you have tested your tap water for nitrate (and ammonia and nitrite too, just to be certain).  I see you mention this in your subsequent post.  Depending what this test turns up, we can consider ways to deal with it.  But if the nitrate is occurring solely within the tank, this is a problem that has to be resolved.  But let's wait for the tap water test results.
 
Byron.

So, I tested my tap water. It appears to be reading around 10ppm for Nitrate. No ammonia, and no nitrite readings though.

When I do water changes I use NutraFin Aqua Plus.

I did another tank reading (no problems since my cory dying) right after testing my tap water and it read around 20ppm. But that was after 30 seconds, as per directions.

I'm using the API test strips for Nitrite, Nitrate, PH, gH, kH and I use API drop kit for Ammonia. If I let the strip sit for longer than 30 seconds all of the colors get a bit darker. It could be that I was just waiting too long to read the strip? For my drop test for ammonia I wait 5 minutes then read.

 

[Byron]

If you can, I would acquire a liquid test kit for nitrate.  I use the API, although some members have commented that it is a bit difficult to distinguish between the colours.  Whichever test, follow the instructions respecting the time; some don't matter, but others apparently do.
 
Nitrate at 10 ppm in the tap water is not unmanageable.  It might be worth looking at Prime for your conditioner at water changes; Prime detoxifies nitrates so the initial influx would be handled.  Smaller volume changes but perhaps more frequent might also help.  I've fortunately never had to deal with nitrates in my tap water.
 
Byron.