Still Having Trouble With Fishless Cycle!

[bsud]

here is the pic of results after the big 75% wc

 

[Ch4rlie]

Right, I'd recommend you do a couple of things.
 
First off, get some media (sponge and ceramic media, would not worry about carbon filter) into your filter, this is important, this makes the home for your bacteria that will process ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.
 
For more info
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/
 
100% water change, to try to reset everything.
 
Add 3ppm according to forum calculator 
 
http/www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm
 
Be sure to put in correct info, litres or gallons, volume, change desired ammonia level from 5ppm to 3ppm  and percentage of ammonia strength.
 
Then take it from there.
 
Think what happened is you added far too much ammonia at start, this stalls or stops everything in tracks basically overwhelming what little bacteria you may have had to start with.

 

[bsud]

Right, I'd recommend you do a couple of things.
 
First off, get some media (sponge and ceramic media, would not worry about carbon filter) into your filter, this is important, this makes the home for your bacteria that will process ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.
 
For more info
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/
 
100% water change, to try to reset everything.
 
Add 3ppm according to forum calculator 
 
http/www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm
 
Be sure to put in correct info, litres or gallons, volume, change desired ammonia level from 5ppm to 3ppm  and percentage of ammonia strength.
 
Then take it from there.
 
Think what happened is you added far too much ammonia at start, this stalls or stops everything in tracks basically overwhelming what little bacteria you may have had to start with.

so if i get my ammonia level down to appropriate level with wc will that not get the cycle back started?

 

[Ch4rlie]

You have said that doing 75% water changes in past has not done much.
 
So doing a 100% water change will do much more and ensures to restart everything.
 
Test water before adding ammonia.
 
That way you know exactly whats going on.
 
Keeping a record of your test results will help a lot

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sorry- I missed the size and pH- I read it all and still did catch it. But is 7.6 your tap water or your tank or both? Your pH at 7.6 should support bacteria just fine, and unless it is dropping, the KH should not be a concern.
 
Unless you have a huge drop maker, 20 drops should only be equal to 1 ml. I ran your tank though the calc. using 8.5 gals (to allow for glass, gravel etc) to make 3 ppm using 10% ammonia. The result is .97 ml. So using the standard of 20 drops per ml, you added only sufficient ammonia to have produced 3 ppm in your tank. Yet you are testing 1/3 higher???
 
Overdosing ammonia should yield one of two test results- the highest level on the kit or 0. Any time you get a test reading at either to highest or lowest level (when above 0) to which a kit goes, you must also realize the possibility that the actual level is higher or lower than the limits of the kit.
 
I still see way too many inconsistencies in your reports. Something is rotten in Denmark for sure. The question is what.

 

[bsud]

You have said that doing 75% water changes in past has not done much.
 
So doing a 100% water change will do much more and ensures to restart everything.
 
Test water before adding ammonia.
 
That way you know exactly whats going on.
 
Keeping a record of your test results will help a lot

so you saying to do more wcs to get ammonia down to the 3ppm mark and it should restart everything? Also if i get it down to 3ppm from the wc i will not add anymore until it drops from the bacteria.

 

[bsud]

Sorry- I missed the size and pH- I read it all and still did catch it. But is 7.6 your tap water or your tank or both? Your pH at 7.6 should support bacteria just fine, and unless it is dropping, the KH should not be a concern.
 
Unless you have a huge drop maker, 20 drops should only be equal to 1 ml. I ran your tank though the calc. using 8.5 gals (to allow for glass, gravel etc) to make 3 ppm using 10% ammonia. The result is .97 ml. So using the standard of 20 drops per ml, you added only sufficient ammonia to have produced 3 ppm in your tank. Yet you are testing 1/3 higher???
 
Overdosing ammonia should yield one of two test results- the highest level on the kit or 0. Any time you get a test reading at either to highest or lowest level (when above 0) to which a kit goes, you must also realize the possibility that the actual level is higher or lower than the limits of the kit.
 
I still see way too many inconsistencies in your reports. Something is rotten in Denmark for sure. The question is what.

my Ph in both are 7.6. Also i put exactly 20 drops of 10% ammonia in using a standard medicine dropper. Im not trying to say i didnt make a mistake somewhere cause obvisously i have but ive tried to do everything exactly by the book, thats why all this has me so confused, I can't figure out where i went wrong.

 

[bsud]

I just went ahead and done one more wc close to 80% to see if i can get ammonia on down to what it should be. If i can get it to 3ppm or a tad less that may be all it needs to get it going?

 

[bsud]

Alright after last wc i finally have ammonia down to 2 possibly 1ppm. What do you recommend me do now just wait it out or do i need to dose a bit to get it to 3ppm? I sure dont wont to screw it up again now that ive gotten ammonia down. Should this get my cycle going now that i have it down or do i need to do something else?

 

[Ch4rlie]

It may take a quite while before you see any differences occurring with the ammonia level after whats happened so far.
 
Btw why wont you do a 100% water change?
 
If you want to speed the process a little, try adding in some Dr Tim's One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria or a bottle of Tetra Safe Start.
Or even, if you have friends or family who has a established tank thats been running awhile, you could use some of their filter media.
 
And might be an idea if you could research online what your water company provides in terms of water hardness in your local area, or you could take a sample of tap water to LFS and ask them to test for general hardness (gH) and for Carbonate Hardness (kH), this is useful to know for cycling as well as what specie of fish would be suitable for your water.
 
Again I'll mention that keeping a log of your tank water tests would be useful.

 

[daizeUK]

I agree with Charlie.  You're putting too much faith in your API testing kit to tell you how much ammonia is in your tank.  Those things are not accurate enough.  I would most definitely do a 100% water change, start over again and get it right.
 
You said you have a 10 gallon tank.  Your ammonium source is 10%.  So using the calculator you should be adding 1.15ml of ammonia.  
 
To measure accurately you should get hold of a 1ml or 2ml syringe.  They should be cheaply obtainable from your local pharmacist, supermarket or Ebay.  But if you really need to measure by drops, thats about 23 drops which sounds pretty close to what you originally added anyway.
 
I really don't trust your API kit right now.  As far as I can make out, you added 20 drops, then did a 75% water change, another 75% water change, and now 80% water change.  If your 'drops' were standard size (0.05ml) then what you did was add 2.8ppm of ammonia which after all those water changes is now diluted to 0.035ppm.
 
If we assume that your API kit is correct then to get a value of 1-2ppm ammonia after all those water changes you would have to have started with 120ppm of ammonia, which means you somehow tipped in 46ml without realising!!!
 
Clearly something isn't right here.  Either you went completely mad with the original dosage or your API test is not telling the truth.
 
Other possibilities are that your tap water contains ammonia, so you are replacing some with each water change, or something in your tank is producing ammonia.
 
Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrate?

 

[thefishmesswithmywater]

I am sure the tank will not cycle because you don't have a filter, all the bacteria lives in there. Sorry if you have already worked that out it's just you said you didn't know why and you have done everything else.

 

[daizeUK]

This is another confusing thing.  You now have three separate threads discussing the same issue and I am having to dig through those old threads to try and figure out what is going on.  Otherwise we end up asking a load of questions that have already been answered before.  It really would be much easier if you just kept everything in one thread.
 

OK here is where I'm at, I did one more big WC and I now have my ammonia down to 1.5-2ppm.

 
This is what you said two weeks ago on 14th May in a different thread - but on 30th May you are saying ammonia is still at 4ppm?  What happened, did it rise again?  This is totally confusing.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I am sure the tank will not cycle because you don't have a filter, all the bacteria lives in there. Sorry if you have already worked that out it's just you said you didn't know why and you have done everything else.

 
Not strictly true.
 
Bacteria lives ALL over the tank, especially in gravel/substrate, and on tank decor and plants, bacteria basically lives in that protective biofilm.
 
Having sponge media, like coarse sponge, and ceramic media inside the filter will certainly be of great assistance since bacteria will basically have the ammonia delivered to them inside a filter, so thus both your bacteria ties will live side by side on the corse and ceramic media. But the myth that all bacteria only lives in the filter is not quite accurate.
 
 

Clearly something isn't right here.  Either you went completely mad with the original dosage or your API test is not telling the truth.
 
Other possibilities are that your tap water contains ammonia, so you are replacing some with each water change, or something in your tank is producing ammonia.
 
Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrate?

 
100% agreed with this from daizeuk.
 
And an excellent suggestion of testing your tap water for ammonia and nitrate.
 
The more information you can provide regarding water parameters from BOTH the tap and the tank would be of good information.

 

[bsud]

I am sure the tank will not cycle because you don't have a filter, all the bacteria lives in there. Sorry if you have already worked that out it's just you said you didn't know why and you have done everything else.

I have a filter. I never said i didnt have one.

I agree with Charlie.  You're putting too much faith in your API testing kit to tell you how much ammonia is in your tank.  Those things are not accurate enough.  I would most definitely do a 100% water change, start over again and get it right.
 
You said you have a 10 gallon tank.  Your ammonium source is 10%.  So using the calculator you should be adding 1.15ml of ammonia.  
 
To measure accurately you should get hold of a 1ml or 2ml syringe.  They should be cheaply obtainable from your local pharmacist, supermarket or Ebay.  But if you really need to measure by drops, thats about 23 drops which sounds pretty close to what you originally added anyway.
 
I really don't trust your API kit right now.  As far as I can make out, you added 20 drops, then did a 75% water change, another 75% water change, and now 80% water change.  If your 'drops' were standard size (0.05ml) then what you did was add 2.8ppm of ammonia which after all those water changes is now diluted to 0.035ppm.
 
If we assume that your API kit is correct then to get a value of 1-2ppm ammonia after all those water changes you would have to have started with 120ppm of ammonia, which means you somehow tipped in 46ml without realising!!!
 
Clearly something isn't right here.  Either you went completely mad with the original dosage or your API test is not telling the truth.
 
Other possibilities are that your tap water contains ammonia, so you are replacing some with each water change, or something in your tank is producing ammonia.
 
Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrate?

Tap water has .25 ammonia and 0 nitrates

This is another confusing thing.  You now have three separate threads discussing the same issue and I am having to dig through those old threads to try and figure out what is going on.  Otherwise we end up asking a load of questions that have already been answered before.  It really would be much easier if you just kept everything in one thread.
 

OK here is where I'm at, I did one more big WC and I now have my ammonia down to 1.5-2ppm.

 
This is what you said two weeks ago on 14th May in a different thread - but on 30th May you are saying ammonia is still at 4ppm?  What happened, did it rise again?  This is totally confusing.

It rose but only after i added safe start. See this could very well be the problem also. I added ssfe start but i added it with the ammonia level already high which was my mistake for not getting it to zero then adding the safe start.

It may take a quite while before you see any differences occurring with the ammonia level after whats happened so far.
 
Btw why wont you do a 100% water change?
 
If you want to speed the process a little, try adding in some Dr Tim's One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria or a bottle of Tetra Safe Start.
Or even, if you have friends or family who has a established tank thats been running awhile, you could use some of their filter media.
 
And might be an idea if you could research online what your water company provides in terms of water hardness in your local area, or you could take a sample of tap water to LFS and ask them to test for general hardness (gH) and for Carbonate Hardness (kH), this is useful to know for cycling as well as what specie of fish would be suitable for your water.
 
Again I'll mention that keeping a log of your tank water tests would be useful.

The reason for not a total 100% change is i use buckets to dip water I dont have any kind of pump right now. once i get so low its hard to get the rest of the water out.