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something Byron said....

thrujenseyes

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"Warmer water holds less oxygen, so the fish are having to respirate far more to get what they need to begin with. Then there is the issue of the effect of temperature on fish metabolism; the warmer the water, the harder the fish has to work just to maintain its normal internal functions. So this means that the fish is working harder and this takes more oxygen, plus the warmth means there is less oxygen available".

Byron said this in another post, which made me think of a question I often have but I didn't want to hijack the other post.

I do weekly 50% water changes on my little 6 gallon fluval edge.
I keep my water in the garage in large water canisters (since I let my tap outgass) and I don't have the room inside.
It's winter and the water gets very cold, so when I mix the appropriate amount with the RO (half tap and half RO) in a 5 gallon bucket I sit it in the bathtub and surround it with hot water to bring it up to temp.

Sometimes it may be a bit colder or even warmer. For some reason warmer always sounded better (maybe because it sounds better to me) but after reading what Byron said....I'm thinking I was wrong.

If I can't get the temp exact (almost impossible) do I want it colder versus warmer?
 
You have a complicated system too me....just my two cents. If you can get it within a couple degrees when put into tank and agitated(filter) I think your good.

I like Byrons comment though. I think most aquariums are kept warmer than needed. I have no evidence...but over last 30 years it seems tank/species temp reccomendations have risen.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
Yup, it is indeed quite correct that the warmer the water the less oxygen there is in the water column.

As for the water changes, would not worry at all about a few degrees either way. I always err on the cooler side rather than the warmer side for water changes. I think if it as nice refreshing cool water for the fish to temporarily play about in, don't seem to mind it at all.

You would definitely see what happens when too warm or too cold water is added to the tank, I mistakenly added 33C of water rather than 23C of water and quickly saw one of the fish swiming really erractically and was not particularly nice to see. Unmistakable.

Of course as soon as I saw this I quickly turned the water temp right down to 20C, the hose is directly attached to the themstatic mixer tap so that was easy to remedy quickly and the fish recovered real fast without any side affect that I could see.

A lesson I learned and am a bit OCD about now :lol:

That reminded me this was something I thought a few years back and enquired if heaters were strictly neccessary for the fish species that do not require warmer water, i.e many species of danios and White Cloud Minnows which are fine in cooler waters. Never really got a conclusive answer so I did a compromise, I have the heater in my tank for the cold nights and winters and is set for 22.5 - 23C max, but the room itself is fairly warm and very stable in temperature so its rare to see the tank at less than 23C at any given time.

In fact I think plants are affected by temperatures as well, for example, elodea, does not seem to like temps above 24C, slow groth and not as green as usually is, leaves begin to fall off etc but thrived in anythng under 24C in any of my tanks. Most likely its only a few types of plants that have some requirement to warmer water temps but nothing to prove or pinpoint this theory atm.
 
I think plants appreciate a cooler tank as well. I definitely believe most moss does.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
I will follow up on what has already been mentioned, with which I agree. Temperature is the driving force behind fish (and sometimes plant) metabolism.

Most fish species we keep as "tropicals" live in water that is fairly consistent in temperature, both throughout the year (one aspect) and also throughout the diurnal cycle (day/night, second aspect). I came to this conclusion by researching temperatures of various rivers and streams in South America. If you dig a bit, you can find data online covering temperature readings of some watercourses over various times of the day/night as well as throughout the year. You will also see this conclusion in newer reference works and articles.

The variance is not very much. A few degrees at most, whether diurnal or yearly. The day/night variance is generally no more than 1-2 degrees C. Most streams and creeks are shaded and may never see direct sun, so the warming during the day is totally because of the warmer air, which of course is less than what direct sun would achieve.

The annual variance depends primarily on the dry/wet cycle. And generally, this is minimal, a few degrees at most; the rain is falling through very warm air, and it lands on very warm ground. There is no significant annual cycle in the tropics anywhere comparable to what most of us in temperate regions are accustomed to experiencing. This is important to keep in mind. As Ch4rlie's example showed, significant sudden temperature fluctuations can cause severe stress. It is no surprise that if the heater fails overnight in winter and the tank temperature drops from say 76F to below the low 60'sF, you will almost inevitably see an outbreak of ich. And ich is caused by stress.

As for the temperature, it is true that many keep tanks warmer than they really need to be. Remember that the water temperature in an aquarium without any heater/cooler will be close to the ambient room temperature. It takes water longer to warm up if it is cooled, and longer to cool down if it is warm, by comparison to the air temperature. This variance must be relatively minimal.

The warmer the water, the harder the fish have to work to maintain normal internal physiological functions. But going too cool can cause similar problems in reverse; the temperature remember drives the fish's metabolism, because the fish is ectothermic, which means it must use the surrounding external temperature to regulate its body temperature, and this temperature must be at the specific temperature (within a narrow range) to drive the fish's internal functions that maintain its life, without overdriving them.

Turning to water changes, with most species a slight cooling is preferable. This replicates a rainstorm, and it invigorates the fish. I always see spawning activity on the morning following the water changes, by this or that species, and the connection is obvious. Of course, more than temperature factors into this, there is also the parameter/TDS differences of fresh water versus tank water. I use my hand to gauge; I take a container of the tank water to the faucet, and adjust the warm/cold to be slightly cooler. A couple of times I was curious what this might work out to be in actual degrees, and it was about 2-3 dF (1-1.5 dC). Sometimes it probably is more, but not by very much.

Byron.
 
Here's a question.

With Bettas for example, The ideal range of the species is 76-82 degrees, yet I notice most Betta keepers keep the fish in the upper range of around 82 I wonder why,
 
Here's a question.

With Bettas for example, The ideal range of the species is 76-82 degrees, yet I notice most Betta keepers keep the fish in the upper range of around 82 I wonder why,

Some fish need warmth, but it is still advisable not to go too high, but individual species physiology may amend this concept.

I just checked a few trustworthy sites, and came up with ranges of 24-30C (75-86F) with SF 22-30C. If I had a Betta splendens, commercially raised (as opposed to wild caught), I would aim around 26C/80F.
 
You have a complicated system too me....just my two cents.
I would love for it not to be but my well water is far too acidic, the treated tap water varies depending on where in the cycle of the crushed coral it falls and my kh from well is 0 which means it has no buffering power so I use stable RO to bring up my ph. But mix with the tap to get some of the minerals and such....and then I supplement with Flourish Comprehensive (the only thing I add chemical wise). Oh and some arogonite

A lesson I learned and am a bit OCD about now
Oh the hard lessons I've learned...I'm sure we all have them! As long as we learn from them, we're going in the right direction!

In fact I think plants are affected by temperatures as well
Something I'd never considered, but of course....why wouldn't they be!

Turning to water changes, with most species a slight cooling is preferable. This replicates a rainstorm, and it invigorates the fish.
That makes total sense to me! I love the rainstorm theory...and I must say I have to agree. Wild fish seem to really enjoy fresh rainfall!

Thanks for all of the amazing information!! I very much appreciate it!
 
I will bring some different perspective to this topic.

While it is true that warmer water can hold less oxygen than colder water, if well oxygenated it can still hold more than sufficient oxygen for the fish to breath. Under normal circumstances this is less of a problem.

Second, fish don't work harder at warmer temperatures. Only their metabolism is faster. There are reasons why many fish breed during high temp periods. Also for raising fish brod higher temps are adviseable, because of the faster metabolism they will grow faster. The down side is that fish kept at (too) high temps for long time will also age faster.

I don't agree on, that constant temperatures are benificial for fish. Quite the contrary. Fish which are subject to a reasonable (!) temp fluctuation are more healthy. Also in nature you have sun and shade, incoming currents, differences between top and bottom, etc.
 
I'd like to comment on a couple points mentioned, if I may be permitted.

I don't agree on, that constant temperatures are benificial for fish. Quite the contrary. Fish which are subject to a reasonable (!) temp fluctuation are more healthy. Also in nature you have sun and shade, incoming currents, differences between top and bottom, etc.

I didn't mean to suggest that "constant temperature" is advisable. I stated that water temperature in the tropical areas native to our aquarium fish is "fairly constant," and I went on to mention they vary by a few degrees diurnally and seasonally. There is a lot of data showing this.

Some advocate two sets of heaters on timers; one with a higher temperature that is on during daylight only, and the other with a lower temperature setting that is on during darkness. I've not gone this far, but there is certainly nothing problematical with the concept. I suppose I do have something like this in summer, when the warmer days raise the tank temperature (even with an air conditioner in the fish room) and it then cools overnight. The variation is about 3-4 degrees F.

Stratification in temperature will be present in most of our tanks, unless the flow from the filter (or other devices) is so strong it creates a permanent mix. Even in my smaller tanks, when I place my hand in the water to plant or something, I can feel a decided cooling as I approach the substrate. This is normal, and beneficial. The cooler water being more dense will flow into the substrate, where it will be warmed by the biological action of breaking down the organics in the substrate/water, and then rise up into the tank.

Second, fish don't work harder at warmer temperatures. Only their metabolism is faster. There are reasons why many fish breed during high temp periods. Also for raising fish brod higher temps are adviseable, because of the faster metabolism they will grow faster. The down side is that fish kept at (too) high temps for long time will also age faster.

I believe there is more to this. By "work harder" I was using a phrase from an article by Laura Muha in TFH some years back, in her then-monthly column "The Skeptical Fishkeeper." She was pointing out the importance of water parameters (being GH, KH, pH and temperature) to the proper functioning of the fish's internal processes. When the parameters stry from those for which the fish was "built" over evolution, the fish "works harder" in the same way that a car being driven up an incline must use more energy to maintain the same speed as on level ground.

Excerpts from the book The Manual of Fish Health:

Fish have evolved in an environment where the temperature remains relatively stable and any changes that do occur do so slowly. Water density varies with temperature. In any one environment, fish acclimatize to a relatively narrow temperature range. If the temperature moves outside this range for a continuous period or changes rapidly within the accepted range then it causes stress to the fish. Although this is true as a general statement, fish species do vary in their ability to withstand temperature change.

We shall be looking at the physiological implications of temperature change in more detail later on, but in general the major effects on fish are: an alteration in metabolic rate, a disturbance of respiration, a blood pH imbalance, and a breakdown in osmoregulation function. Sudden temperature changes often cause swimbladder problems.

The physiological effects of temperature increase and decrease are slightly different: in general, fish adjust better to an upward rather than a downward temperature change of the same magnitude.

Increasing temperature results firstly in a vicious spiral of increasing metabolic rate, and therefore a growing demand for oxygen, in the face of a falling oxygen content of the water. Physiologically, the oxygen deficit resulting from high temperatures causes an increased production of adrenalin and a faster heart rate. The problem is exacerbated by a parallel reduction in the blood's oxygen transporting capacity.

High temperatures cause denaturing of body proteins and enzymes, and cells damaged by this process produce toxic matabolites. High temperature also raises the inherent toxicity of certain substances, most notably heavy metals and ammonia. And osmoregulatory problems occur at high temperatures because lipids change state in cell membranes, causing an increase in the permeability of the cells. This is especially crucial in the gills.​

Byron.
 
Hm, I think we agree on that fish should best be kept at conditions (temp, water hardness, etc) they have evolved for.

Most likely we have been refering to different "high temp" conditions. What your book excerpt describes only holds true if the temp is clearly outside of the exceptable range for the fish species in question. I was more talking about the upper end of acceptable and especially refering to the question of the OP. It is no problem if during water changes the temp fluctuates somewhat as long as it is not too extrem.
 
I will bring some different perspective to this topic.
I always welcome other perspectives!

'd like to comment on a couple points mentioned, if I may be permitted.
"may be permitted" of COURSE! I'd love to pick your brain 24/7! You're lucky you're not my neighbor...I'd make a real pest of myself "oh hey Byron, I was in the area AGAIN...here's some cookies, I have a few questions"
 
"may be permitted" of COURSE! I'd love to pick your brain 24/7! You're lucky you're not my neighbor...I'd make a real pest of myself "oh hey Byron, I was in the area AGAIN...here's some cookies, I have a few questions"

:lol:
 
For cookies, you would get all the advice you want, or that I have, whichever came first.:drinks:
 

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