Some talkshow says only BioWheel

[smb]

Hey, smb, Im a euro but im not afraid of looking at new developments with an open mind.. Should I consider counselling?

Ken

If Euro is a cutdown to you guys, please accept my apology. That's just what we call you. Kind of like you guys calling us yanks.

 

[andyt_uk]

Maybe the canister is the marketing sham and we over here know better.

no offence intended at all, and the smiley should have been a smiley to show the tongue in cheek humour i intended

but it does bemuse me that if they are so good, why cant we get em

and true betamax was far superior to VHS - but as i remember betamax boxes looked much crappier

 

[Jo]

where does the phrase Yanks come from anyway...?

 

[smb]

Maybe the canister is the marketing sham and we over here know better.   

no offence intended at all, and the smiley should have been a smiley to show the tongue in cheek humour i intended

but it does bemuse me that if they are so good, why cant we get em

and true betamax was far superior to VHS - but as i remember betamax boxes looked much crappier

LMAO@ true betamax was far superior to VHS - but as i remember betamax boxes looked much crappier

I can't tell you why it's not over there to be honest. I do know but there's a lot of things in the US that aren't available elsewhere. Doesn't mean it's good or bad but just the way it is.

I don't mind if everyone thinks canisters are better than a biowheel and states so. I have learned to try to stay out of the filter threads or if I reply it's just to state what I like best to help out the poster and I leave it at that.

Canisters are good filters and I don't have a problem with them, I've used them on many tanks and will in the future. I just like biowheels better right now. I'm sure there will be something that comes along in the near future that will be better and biowheels might go by the wayside but that's called progress and innovation and shouldn't be considered a negative thing. I just don't like the comments that I or anyone only uses it because it's some marketing sham. ie. I'm not intelligent to know the difference in what's good or not and what works for me. That's the only thing I have a problem with. I haven't been in this hobby as long as I have to follow the crowd and not learn to experiment on my own. Also, I've been in it far too long to think that there's only one way to do things in this hobby.

 

[Lateral Line]

Ken: Is it not also true that people did sucessfully keep and breed discus before even powerheads were invented? People like Heckel were line breeding the strains people covert today with very simple gear. No, I would not advocate that someone start to line breed discus today in a slate bottom tank heated with oil lamps - but that's what they did.

We can, (and have), debated the theory of filtration several times - it is fairly obvious, we both know how it works. However, read the original post again. The point I am making is that there is a large amount of propaganda out there indoctrinating newbies into beliving that "X" is the only way to go.

In this case - X = BioWheel. This is obviously not true, and is evidenced by the fact that none of the regular European contributors has ever even seen a BioWheel. Are these people saying European fishkeepers are backward, ignorant?

Look at another aspect of the original post. The highly visual and very convincing display of Oxygen reading - good stuff. If accepted at face value, then the bottoms of tanks would be eutrophic. It is obvious that O2 concentration falls off with depth, but in any system where there is any water circulation, the effects are VERY much smaller, approaching negligible - if it weren't bottom living fish would die of suffocation, when in fact, they do not. I find it irritating that fraudulent examples like this are used to underpin an argument the author wishes to make. The real point there is - be careful about accepting the advice of any one source however compelling. How many newbies have we had in here that accepted the advice of their LFS because they "seemed to know what they were talking about" - and we know what happens next.

My grouch is with the methods used to promote things these days rather than, necessarily, with the products themself.

I do not feel I need a BioWheel because I do not impose heavy bioloading in my tanks. I also have seen pictures of these things, and they all seem to occupy space in the hood or provide clutter around the top of the tank - both of which I refuse to have. That is my choice.

>>> an open mind..

Exactly. Newbies however, do not have the range of experience to make decisions that way - thus they get hooked by the marketting patter.

>>> If Euro is a cutdown to you guys,

Nope - proud to be a Euro!

*** EDIT ***

Phew - active thread - I'm going to have to type faster!

 

[andyt_uk]

>>> If Euro is a cutdown to you guys,

Nope - proud to be a Euro!

hmm now thats another debate altogether

 

[Lateral Line]

>>> hmm now thats another debate altogether

How true

 

[smb]

I agree Lat, but being our tanks are only a couple feet deep we don't have to worry about the epilimnion and thermal stratification of eutrophic, oligotrophic or mesotrophic bodies of water.

The idea of more oxygen is better is a valid one imo, whether the aquarist needs it or not. Considering that beneficial bacteria needs a minimum amount to survive, more is better.

The advertising that bothers you so much is a valid one. I hate the way biowheels are advertised like the ONLY viable option. I also hate the way every marketing campaign is set up where it's the "latest and greatest and nothing can top it." That goes for any product and commercial I've ever seen in my life whether it be for food, toys, whatever. Canister filters are advertised in this manner also. They claim to be the best and nothing can touch it, also. They would be ignorant not to advertise in this manner, as would everyone else.

We all have valid points and we all have our favorites we choose for our own specific needs. Exactly the way it should be.

 

[Cian McLiam]

Ken: Is it not also true that people did sucessfully keep and breed discus before even powerheads were invented? People like Heckel were line breeding the strains people covert today with very simple gear. No, I would not advocate that someone start to line breed discus today in a slate bottom tank heated with oil lamps - but that's what they did.

We can, (and have), debated the theory of filtration several times - it is fairly obvious, we both know how it works. However, read the original post again. The point I am making is that there is a large amount of propaganda out there indoctrinating newbies into beliving that "X" is the only way to go.

In this case - X = BioWheel. This is obviously not true, and is evidenced by the fact that none of the regular European contributors has ever even seen a BioWheel. Are these people saying European fishkeepers are backward, ignorant?

I am not sure what you took from my post on this, I wasnt saying it wasnt possible to keep Discus in a tank with an under gravel filter, I was however saying that it would not be advised as developments in filter technology make keeping fish much less of an expert task than in previous years. The same can be applied to all developments in all aspects of the hobby.

It is true that fish and bacteria should have sufficient oxygen for both to thrive, however this is not always the case. If you excuse the analogy, I like to think of it like this:

Would you buy a fiberglass car with no safety features because you know you are a competent and safe driver? Of course not, you are aware that there are things in your control and things out of your control that can go wrong.

I apply the same logic to my aquarium, if I think there is even the chance that oxygen might dip, for whatever the reason, I would like to have the assurance that at least the precious filter bacteria are one thing I dont have to worry about, leaving me with just one concern ie the fish.

I dont have a bio-wheel and as said, they arent available here. As such I have not seen any of the hype you mention about the bio-wheel but I will agree on one thing, saying that all other forms of filtration are useless is very wrong. I do not think the Bailey brothers have any interest in Bio-whels other than they have found them to be excellent filters and are happy to endorse them.

Ken

 

[CFC]

Maybe im just having a dumb day (oi no remarks you lot ) but i think we are missing one major point here..... the ammount of bacteria you have is governed by one large factor and that is how much food it has to survive. It dosent matter how much oxygen you throw at the bacteria there will still only be as much as there is ammonia and nitrite to feed them. The only actual benefit i can see from a bio wheel is that you can fit more bacteria into a smaller place so if space is a issue then they may be the better option, but a large cannister can hold just as much bacteria as a bio wheel with the added bonus of being able to hold other medias (ie resin exchange type medias for removing phosohates and nitrates etc or peat for water softening) as well.

 

[Cian McLiam]

Or you could look at it from this point of view, if the food is available ie nitrites, ammonia, and the oxygen is insufficeint, what then?? Toxic tank!!

Its interesting to note that my personal favourite, and king of the filters, Eheim are incorporating the same principles into their top of the line wet/dry canisters........
I think they know filters and know what works and what doesnt!

Ken

 

[CFC]

Or you could look at it from this point of view, if the food is available ie nitrites, ammonia, and the oxygen is insufficeint, what then?? Toxic tank!!

Its interesting to note that my personal favourite, and king of the filters, Eheim are incorporating the same principles into their top of the line wet/dry canisters........
I think they know filters and know what works and what doesnt!

Ken

Well on the first note if that is the case then once again it all adds up to a severely overstocked tank and filtration should be the least of the keepers worries .

On the second note, maybe there is something which us mere mortals arent seeing and now a bio wheel type filter is finally going to be available we can all see just how great they may be for ourselves, thats after weve found the £200 for a new top of the range eheim wet/dry canister with bio wheel filtration system

 

[smb]

Or you could look at it from this point of view, if the food is available ie nitrites, ammonia, and the oxygen is insufficeint, what then?? Toxic tank!!

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[smb]

Well on the first note if that is the case then once again it all adds up to a severely overstocked tank and filtration should be the least of the keepers worries

It wouldn't necessarily be severely overstocked if you had the bacteria colony for it. If the biowheel compensated for it and the canister didn't... this is the whole point of what we're saying.

 

[Cian McLiam]

CFC, the eheims dont use thebio-wheel, the wet/dry canister is the component that uses the same principle.
Check this out:
Wet/Dry filter:

Decomposition of amminia - 73% faster, nitrite - 67% faster

from this link: Eheim

And from Eheims own website:

The EHEIM professionelwet/dry filters offer efficiency surpassing that of a trickle filter. The water movement within the filter is bi-directional allowing for extended contact time between bacteria colonies, oxygen and toxins, which are thus decomposed much more rapidly than in a traditional filter

Decomposition of ammonium - 73% faster, nitrite - -67% faster.
Exchange of oxygen and CO2 is accomplished by means of displacement through the specially designed breathing tube.
The water output pulsates as the filter fills and empties, achieving a wavelike action.

That sounds good to me!

Ken