So Much Trouble - Where To Start!

[emmaisaguppy]

I accept that this is not really an emergency anymore as my fish are sadly now all dead. However Advice for the next time round would be great.

My tank has been up and running for about a year. I do weekly changes of 25-30%. I test my water 2x per week and until the problems I am about to explain the water was always perfect.

I had a number of healthy fish (Rams, barbs, neons, guppies) that I got from the same lfs, never any serious problems with them. Then I got 2 dwarf gourami from a different lfs, this is when things started going wrong:

First my fish all got sick except for the barbs and gouramis, the all had bouyancy problems - LFS man said that their symptoms were consistent with shimmies and gave me a treatment - I lost my guppies - either to this or the leeches as detailed blow.

Second one of the gouramis died, when I found him on the bottom of the tank he was covered in worm type creatures wich I posted and got identified as fish leeches. I used interpret for crustacians to treat these.

The medication had 2 negative effects, the first being that it (or the leeches) killed a few of the other fish and made some a bit wobbly again. the second being that it killed off all of the good bacteria forcing my tank to cycle again after a large water change to remove as much ofthe treatment as possible.

During the cycle of the tank I did regular water changes and tests to try to keep the water as clean as possible. Despite this I still lost fish.

Also durngthis period it became necessary to move the tank as I was having a new floor, so a larg water change to make te tank light enough to carry was necessary. After this I lost most of the tetras and shortly after being back in it's right position we decided to put the last neon out of his misery as he looked very sick and thin and could not swim well ( he was always vertical).

This left me with only the three barbs who seemed healthy as ever, I couldn't quite believe that they had managd to survive so much.

Anyway, needless to say that I didn't want to add anymore fish fr a while until the tank was properly cycled again, so I waited.

When the stats had settled for a while I added 6 seprae tetras, they seemed healthy and were from the LFS that I aways used to use before the gouramis. They got on well with the barbs and in fact (might be a new discovery - Idon't know) the barbs and these tetras shoaled together. All seemed well in the tank for a couple of weeks, and ten suddenly a barb died - no sign of disease, water stats were fine so I put it down to old age + stress of alll of the above.

Then the remaining two barbs were covered in whitespot, so I treated with an anti bacterial (sae one I used for shimmies). The tetras seemed fine.

Now barbs and tetras are all dead and my tank is bare.

Until I got the gouramis everything was fine so I do wat to start again. What I need advice on is how to start over? Do I want to completely empty the tank, clean everything, get new gravel etc.... or do I want to keep some of the bacteria tat is left in the tank, but possibly any left over disease. Do I change all of the plants etc...? I just don't know wat t do for the best.

Also some advice on which tropicals are the most hardy and least likely to be diseased (not for fish cycle as I will always do it fishless but so that I can start with some fish that won't die on me in a hurry).

Any advice (other than telling me that I am a useless fish keeper and not to start over) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Emma

 

[Underwurlde]

You are here (in this forum) & you are willing to put some effort into learning: That's all anyone can be asked to do!

Start off by researching the nitogen cycle, that is, look at the pinned thread on cycling filters.

That is the best start. While your tank cycles, then learn about volume calculations and fish types / community / parameters etc. Then come up with a stocking suggestion and ask for opinion about it on the forum. Adding your tank dimentions etc to your profile will also help others quickly assess your questions.

You can't really go wrong from there, but my advice here is to at the very least ask about anything you are thinking of doing (no matter how insignificant it may seem) on this forum first! I say this in hindsight!

Andy

 

[emmaisaguppy]

Thanks. I do know a bit about the cycling process (but you can never know too much).

I will start by asking:

Should I remove and clean everything from the tank? and what with before I start my fishless cycle or should I try to retain some ofthe good bacteria (as the stats have recovered from the crustacian killer then they are definately there). I am not really bothered which is the quickest option, just what is best for my future fishies.

I think I am going to understock massively this time round and just have a few really nice fish. I quite like the contrast of blue and orange so I am thinking something along the lines of two medium sized feature fish in blue and a shoal of some orangy pinky coloured. My first thoughts would be Rams and seprae tetras as I have had both before and know of them but I would love to hear other suggestions.

My tank is the biube:
35 litres
measurements and shape are on
[URL="http/www.reef-one.com/aquariums/biube.htm"]http/www.reef-one.com/aquariums/biube.htm[/URL]

Lets hope that I don't have as many problems this time around.

Thanks

Emma

 

[Underwurlde]

OK, first off measurements.

This can trip a lot of people up initially.

When people quote gallons, unless otherwise stateed, this will be US Gallons. This measurement system is DIFFERENT to imperial Gallons that we use in the UK.

So, when ppl state inches per gallon, WPG (Watts of lighting Per Gallon) they are referring to US Gallons NOT imperial (UK if you like) Gallons.

So, how to comvert? Great tip I learnt on here, use Google:

Type in:
35 litres in US gallons
into Google search (no capitals). The 'search' result is: 9.25 US Gallons.
Now try:
35 litres in imperial gallons
Answer, 7.7 US Gallons.

Quite a difference then!

OK, your tank dimensions:
Round, diameter 33.3cm, 46cm tall. Surface area (of a circle) is pi x (d/2)^2 so that's 871 cm squared
volume will therefore be 871 x 46 = 40,066 cm cubed.
So that's in metric. Google to convert to imperial inches are better for the sake of convention (inches in US same as that for imperial):
In Google again,
33.3 centimeters in inches
Gives 13.1 inches (diameter of your tank)
46 centimeters in inches
Gives 18.1 inches (height of your tank in inches)
871 centimeters squared in inches squared
Gives 135 inches squared.
Volume is therefore 18.1 inches x 135 inches squared = 2,444 inches cubed.
So, to test our calcs, type into Google again:
2444 inches cubed in us gallons
Gives 10.6 US Gallons (OK, so this is not exactly 9.25 US Gallons, or the 9 Gallons stated on their Website, the the dimensions are external measurements and include the base, thickness of glass, the fact that you don't fill to the brim etc).

So a 9 (US) Gallon tank it is then, with a surface area of 135 inches squared.

This leads us on to fish stocking. There are two GENERAL rules:
rule #1) Maximum stocking = 1 inch of fish length for every 1 US Gallon of water.
rule #2) Maximum stocking = 1 inch of fish length for surface area (Inches squared) / 12.

So, from rule #1, this gives 9 inches maximum fish length (9 guppies for example).
From rule #2 this gives 135 / 12 = 11 inches maximum fish length (11 guppies for example).

I prefer rule #2, but a median of the two rules suggests 10" maximum total mature body length of fish. (No, this does NOT of course mean on 10" sized fish!)

Once you've got your head around that, I will come back to tank & filter cleaning and stocking options....

Cheers,

Andy

 

[darkwolf29a]

As far as cleaning the tank and getting everything ready....here's what I would do:

1) Remove the water. (100% water change)
2) Throw away the filter media. (The bacteria is dead anyway, at this point.)
3) Rinse the tank, and clean it with a sponge. (Note: NO soap and no sponge that has ever touched soap. LOL)
4) Boil the rocks, and then bake them. I bake mine at 325 degrees for an hour, and then lay them on a clean sheet to dry for a few hours. (That should take care of anything left over in the rocks)
5) Get new filter media.

Start the nitrogen process.

Also, if you have another tank, or a friend that's close by. You could deliver your filter media over there for a few weeks, borrow some gravel from them, and jump start your cycle. I put my new media in my Oscar tank, and put some gravel in a small piece of pantyhose, with a knot to hold the gravel in there. It works well, and cuts the cycle time by a bunch.

 

[emmaisaguppy]

Thankyou both for all of this - you are brilliant.

Underwurlde - thanks for working out how many fish I am allowed, in the past I have been overstocked (by a fair bit by the sounds of things) it's easy to get over - excited when you see the pretty fish in the shop but this time round I am definately going to understock - I will plan what I like before hand so that I get the ones I really like!!!

Darlwolf - unfortunately I don't have any friends to steal gravel or filter media from (well I do have one but all of her fish have died as well so I will be sharing all of this sdvice with her) or another tank to store anything in so I will have to use the patients method. Your tips on how to prepare my tank are excellent - thanks - I will do all of that tonight and then tomorrow I will start the add and wait method of cycling as pinned!

I am determined to get all of this right this time and have beautiful healthy happy fish to watch swim around in the evenings after a hard day at work.

Oh and also I am going to purchase a hospital tank in case I get any more problems!!!

Best Wishes

Emma

 

[emmaisaguppy]

Hi all

I have cleaned out my tank as advised. Got new gravel rather than trying to clean the old stuff. Got it all set up. They don't stock amonia in either of my LFS shops, where else could I get this from.

Instead they sold me some fresh bacteria out of the fridge which I have put in the filter. Obviously amonia readings are 0 (would be worried if I got a high reading from tap water!!) but the nitrate readings are quite high and do not seem to be changing.

The advice at the LFS who sold me this bacteria was that usually you can add fish after only 2 days (don't worry there is no way I am doing this!) of adding it to the tank! She did not understand why I might want to add amonia, because thats what you want to get rid of. I tried to explain it to her but she, of course, thought she knew better.

How is the bacteria even living in the tank if it is not being fed on anything?
Should I try to get amonia from somewhere else or is there a way around this with the set up I already have?

Cheers
Emma

 

[ibbledibble]

you can buy household ammonia from various general shops in the uk. people have mentioned boots and homebase frequently. its usually used for cleaning. make sure the stuff you buy is only ammonia and distilled water, no other ingredients.

the bacteria from the bactinettes will die if left without food for too long (not sure how long is too long sorry)

apparently the bactinettes only contain the bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrite so you still need to do a cycle to build up the second type of bacteria. so adding the ammonia is a good plan.

stick to your guns and do it properly and hopefully things will go well in future.

if you are buying a new tank for a hospital tank, use it to quarantine new fish for approx 2 weeks before adding them. hopefully that will avoid another total die off of your existing stock in future. as they say, prevention is better than cure!

Good Luck

 

[emmaisaguppy]

Thanks
I will pop to homebase on the way home tonight.

Best Wishes
Emma

 

[emmaisaguppy]

I can confirm that the bacteria I bought does not work well enough on it's own. I put amonia in last night to 6ppm and it is still at 6ppm (well a tiny bit lower but not down to the next colour yet!) now. To anyone thinking that this is a way of shortening cycle time I would say not to bother!

Advice given in LFS x2 was really terrible. If I had followed it I would have fish in the tank by now and they would all be dying in their own waste. Anyone know of a good LFS in the Hertfordshire area? It's difficult to trust that you are gtting healthy fish when they give you such ill informed advice!

 

[Underwurlde]

With regards the bactinettes first: This product has worked for some, not so for others. It is used to SEED filters and thus speeding the cycling process. It does not work INSTANTLY. Usually cycling process can be from 4 to 8 week, the tank as a whole being considered 'mature' in about 6 to 12 months. When seeding a filter in this manner, be it from a product such as Bactinettes, Biospira filter seeding, mulm etc, then the cycling process should only take 2 to 4 weeks, i.e. halving the time it takes.

Therefore, bunging some Bactinettes in a few days ago and then proclaiming 'I can confirm that the bacteria I bought does not work well enough on it's own', would not IMO be a fair assessment of this product really... that is asking too much.

You've got to give these things TIME.

Advice given in LFS x2 was really terrible.

That may be so, but don't forget that fishless cycling is a very modern technique. There is nothing wrong with cycling with fish - you just have to be a lot more careful. It is true that the idea of 'cycling' and the nitrogen cycle is an alien concept to many established aquarisits & LFSs alike, but assessing them on just this would not be fair. Judge them by their on-going fish advice / knowledge / help / shop condition etc...

Andy

 

[emmaisaguppy]

Gosh no I didn't expect it to be instant but I did think that if the bacteria was live then it would have made a significant dent in the reading. (even thought the advice on the fridge it was sold in suggested that it was instant I did not expect it). I'm happy to wait as long as it takes (as long as I get some fish in this side of christmas!!!)

Up to now I did think that one of the two fish shops was good (based on the fish and knowledge of the staff etc...) but maybe the lady concerned was just a bit "old school", the fish always seem healthy enough and the tanks clean in comparison to the other one in question. Maybe I will give them another chance but not take there advice so readily in future!

Ta
Emma

 

[Underwurlde]

Cool.

GL With the cycling for crimbo then...

For the record then, to maximise cycling speed potential (soz if you already know this..)

1) whack the temperature up. 30degC to 32 Deg C
2) add a weekly pinch of Bicarbonate of Soda - don't wholly rely on ammonia these bacteria & this is a required food source normally via hard tap water, but just in case.
3) Not only monitor Ammonia & then when that goes down, nitrite and when that goes down nitrate, but very important, also monitor pH
4) I'd keep the tank in the dark or at the very least turn the lights off and out of direct sunlight - don't want an algae bloom!
5) Keep the surface agitated through sensible positioning of filter outlet - bacteria need well oxygenated water.

Andy

 

[Jules H-T]

Well not sure if it's any consolation, but I've always been really lazy with quarantining fish and just whacked them in. I have read this and as a direct result of your thread my new batch of fish that arrived yesterday are sitting in a quarantine tank.

So I at least have learned the lesson of your misfortune, so thanks for that. Better luck with the new setup.