Slow turn over on new tank.

[jaylach]

I have recently setup a small 20 gallon cube tank that is going much slower than what I'm used to in the past... last tank was about 25 years ago. It looks like it is a bacteria bloom being somewhat cloudy. The cloudiness is a light grey or slightly milky. Granted that the tank has only been setup for about 2 weeks max. It is also a smaller tank than I used to run. Over the last couple of days the cloudiness has lessened a little.

The cube came with built in filtration of which I have no real knowledge. Right now I have the pump for this disconnected and the carbon pack removed... never did see much sense in using carbon on a normal basis. The built in pump is just too strong for the rope fish I want at a rating of 264 GPH. I DO intend to replace with an 80-100 GPH pump. As I'm old school I'm also running under gravel filtration which is currently running. There are two under gravel plates with one riser per plate. Each riser is driven by a Whisper 40 running full flow. The gravel varies from 2-3 inches thick.

The tank is populated by a pleco, a cory, and 2 black skirt tetras. These were all inherited in a 2 gallon tank.

I guess that is enough history.

I have thoughts on why the cycle is longer than what I used to experience but would like to know if I'm thinking wrong.
1) It is a smaller tank than I used to run.
2) It is a cube instead of rectangle resulting in less gravel surface for the under gravel filtration.
3) The gravel is just generic aquarium gravel and I used to use agate to increase the alkalinity for South American Cichlids.
4) The altitude where I now live, Sheridan Wyoming, is MUCH higher than previous tanks at 3700 feet. Previous tanks were in Ohio, 623 feet and Texas at 439 feet.

Do these factors make sense as to my seeing a much slower turn over that what I used to see?

 

[jaylach]

Ah! I finally found a 93 GPH submersible pump on-line. It should be here in about a week. Also found an API Master test kit from the same outfit. All I really have here in my small town is a Petco and they had neither yet I got both at Petco.com.

The pump has more negative reviews than I would like but most were from people trying to use a submersible pump as an external.

I will run the pump with the ceramics in the built in filtration but not the carbon pack. Haven't decided on the sponges yet but will probably start out using to see how it goes. I just could not see trying to use a 264 GPH pump in a 20 gallon cube when I want rope/reed fish. I mean tetras can't even swim in the turbulence caused byt the 264 GPH.

 

[Colin_T]

What is the ammonia and nitrite level in the tank?

The cloudy water is probably caused by fish food breaking down and no or not enough beneficial filter bacteria. Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day or two for a few weeks. This will remove uneaten food and clear the cloudy water.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.


AquaClear powerheads are good quality and reliable. They can be used to circulate water.

 

[jaylach]

Unfortunately I can't test the water until my test kit gets here. I had to order on-line as my only local option is a Petco store that does not carry the kits.

I use Stress Coat to prep new water but may switch to Prime.

I DO believe that I've figured out the issue I am having with the built in filtration's pump being way too strong at 264 GPH. Since I had never used this type of filtration I actually read the instructions. At the bottom of the sponge and pump chambers are small inlet holes. At the top of the sponge chamber is a small slotted vent. The instructions said to fill the tank to cover the top vent. It dawned on me tonight that the top vent must actually be a safety feature to prevent the tank from over flowing if the sponges get clogged causing the pump to empty the filtration section to the main tank. Having the water always covering the vent just bypassed the sponges and much smaller lower input holes. In reality the built in filtration never actually worked as the sponges and lower intakes were always bypassed by the top vent causing the pump to output the full rated 264 GPH. Considering this the 264 GPH pump may not actually be overkill as the small lower intakes and sponges will probably dramatically lower the output just through resistance.

I was planning to do a partial water change tomorrow anyway so will not refill to cover the top vent like the instructions state to do. I will be surprised if the output is not much less. Sadly this is going to leave a gap between the water level and the top frame of the tank but I can mask that with black electrical tape.

Since I have strong under gravel filtration also going the tank has never been without good filtration but that very under gravel filtration would likely still cause some minor flow the the built in system but not enough to actually do anything. This could possibly cause a buildup of crud.

I think my main issue has been a lack of understanding how the built in filtration is supposed to work and following a bad set of instructions. What can I say? I've never used, or even knew about, built in three stage filtration. All I ever used, ~25 years ago, was under gravel driven by air and/or power heads.

<edit>
Sigh, to add on I just removed enough water to make the level just at the bottom of the top vent and the output of the 264 GPH pump is still too high and empties the filter chambers. I DO think that when the 93 GPH pump I ordered gets here things will balance out. On a rough estimate the 93 GPH pump will cycle the tank water ~4 times per hour. To do the math I approximated a 15% loss of flow due to the sponges. With that and the under gravel filtration I would guess that the tank water will cycle 6-8 times per hour.

 

[jaylach]

OK, I just did about a 50% water change... Ya I know 75% was recommended but I felt I was disturbing the fish enough.

I also did a siphon vacuum on the gravel and actually got very little crud.

I will say that it appears that I was right about the under gravel filtration being strong. Even with the riser heads being a few inches above the water level it was still pumping out water.

In about a week, when I see how the new 93 GPH pump works out, I will likely use aquatic silicone to plug quite a bit of the upper overflow vent in the sponge compartment. If I'm now correctly understanding how this built in filtration is supposed to work the upper vent is just too large being too tall. One reason that the built in system does not seem to work is that the upper overflow vent is too low. Shoot, it is even below the top of the sponges. The divider between the sponge area and the ceramic/carbon area is tall enough that the pump is spitting air before the compartment overflows happens. If I still see this issue after connecting the 93 GPH pump I will enlarge the lower intake hole for the sponge area. The tank build and lighting seems really good but the design of the built in filtration just does not work.

I would LOVE to totally break down the tank and cut out the divider between the main tank and filtration including the dividers between the filtration chambers. If the air risers for my under gravel still pump water when a few inches above water level I should not need the built in but it has become personal. Also I'm afraid that the structure of the built in filtration could be structural and could weaken the tank's integrity. It could be like removing a load bearing wall in a house.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

One thing just jumped out at me...you said that you are using API Stress Coat

Can you confirm how long you have been using it please?

Stress Coat contains unrefined Aloe Vera. It is an essential oil and thus does not dissipate or dilute with each water change. It hangs there in the water and with each water change using it, the amount increases over time. This will have a long term effect on your fish in that it very slowly builds up and then blocks the gill structures, which in turn will eventually suffocate the fish....may take many months to become fatal, but it will be.

Just as with you should never use API products with "fix" in their name (Melafix etc) with surface breathing fish like Gourami or Betta due to those additives having unrefined Tee Tree that destroys the labrynth organs thus suffocating the fish just as with the Stress Coat.

If you could do daily water changes of at least 75% for 7 to 10 days and do the substrate vac alternate days that will lessen the effects of the Aloe Vera. Then change to a different dechlorinator.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

In regard to the cloudy water, that is reasonably normal for an aquarium two weeks into its cycle process. Cycling without fish can take an average of 7 to 8 weeks, with fish it can take significantly longer at around 10 to 12 weeks. I would not be overly concerned with the fog this early on in the process. later in the cycle process you will likely find yourself battling diatoms which appear close to the end of the cycle and vanish on their own over a couple of weeks just as the fog will do too.

 

[jaylach]

I've been using Stress Coat since the initial tank setup about two weeks ago and I DO tend to over dose replacement water. Years ago this never caused me issues but that was long ago and products change. I've already pretty much decided to switch to Prime. Is that a better choice? Actually, if you go back to my first tank, I've been using Stress Coat for something like 55 years; just had a span of in the area of many years between then and now.

Sigh, I REALLY appreciate the advice I'm getting but, especially the last two previous posts, seem to be conflicting. Mayhaps they are not really but I have to admit to ignorance as to tanks today and they seem conflicting to me. It could also just be that I'm set in my ways and stubborn.

I mean one post SEEMS to indicate that my issue is Stress Coat and the other says to not worry. I don't know which to go with and it is quite possible that I should go with both.

I also find it possible that the advice about Stress Coat was not meant as to relate to the cloudiness and, rather, just a warning about the product.

wasmewasntit, I Truly, TRULY appreciate and value your input but could you please try to alleviate my confusion on this? Part of me wishes that I had just gotten a plain 30 gallon tank with nothing but a full stand and then set up my under gravel without having to worry about this new filtration stuff. If it worked well 25 years ago it would still work. Don't get me wrong as I like my new tank but I DO think I would have done better if I'd stayed with my 'old school' knowledge. Like they say; It's hard to teach an old dog a new trick.

 

[Wills]

Hi sounds like you are getting on the right track but just picked up on a few things that concerned me.

You said the pump is too powerful for rope fish? You are not planning to put rope fish in this 20 gallon tank are you? Rope fish can grow upto 3 foot and need minimum a 120g tank preferably a 180.

Secondly you said you had some Agate in the substrate to buffer the tank for South American Cichlids? South Americans need soft water so any rocks increasing hardness is not a good thing. Again tank size could be an issue do you know which cichlids you are interested in?

I've been using Prime recently and had it pointed out that its not that great. The best product to decholrinate with is the API water conditioner, basically stress coat but without the aloe vera. Its usually the cheapest of the 'stress' products too which helps .

Wills

 

[jaylach]

Hi sounds like you are getting on the right track but just picked up on a few things that concerned me.

You said the pump is too powerful for rope fish? You are not planning to put rope fish in this 20 gallon tank are you? Rope fish can grow upto 3 foot and need minimum a 120g tank preferably a 180.

Secondly you said you had some Agate in the substrate to buffer the tank for South American Cichlids? South Americans need soft water so any rocks increasing hardness is not a good thing. Again tank size could be an issue do you know which cichlids you are interested in?

I've been using Prime recently and had it pointed out that its not that great. The best product to decholrinate with is the API water conditioner, basically stress coat but without the aloe vera. Its usually the cheapest of the 'stress' products too which helps .

Wills

I'll take one thing at a time.

1) In the wild you are right that a rope can get to 3 feet but that is not true in captivity. In captivity they will rarely get over 15 inches. On rare occasions a female can reach 20 inches in captivity but that is rare. I was also concerned with the tank size and researched this extensively. They are also VERY adaptable. I have a fake tree trunk in the tank that is totally hollow with several openings. The 'trunk is mainly on the left side of the tank but the bottom wraps around to almost reach the right side. That branch also has an opening. The fake trunk is also vertically tall. I sometimes call ropes 'water dogs' as they seem to act like dogs that just seem to live in water. From my experience I can say that they do like their chins rubbed. I've dealt with these critters in a 30 gallon tank with no issue. It isn't so much a matter of the actual tank size as long as they have room to move whether horizontal or vertical. This is why I used a tall fake and hollow tree trunk instead of broken slate to build caves. They just need movement space. They don't care if it is horizontal or vertical.

2) No, I did not say that I had agate in the tank. I said that in past tanks I used agate for my South American Cichlids. The current tank has no agate as my local store does not carry. Sigh, you may be totally right as to soft water for South American Cichlids but that MAY just be their wild environment. When fish are bread in captivity things change. I have had Blue and Yellow Acara, Jack Dempsey, Green Terror and convicts along with a rope, pleco and cory in a 30 gallon tank using nothing but agate as the gravel and no filtration other than under gravel. They all thrived and I never had an issue. I doubt that I'll populate the current tank with any of the Cichlids I've stated as I want the tank for ropes.

 

[Wills]

I'll take one thing at a time.

1) In the wild you are right that a rope can get to 3 feet but that is not true in captivity. In captivity they will rarely get over 15 inches. On rare occasions a female can reach 20 inches in captivity but that is rare. I was also concerned with the tank size and researched this extensively. They are also VERY adaptable. I have a fake tree trunk in the tank that is totally hollow with several openings. The 'trunk is mainly on the left side of the tank but the bottom wraps around to almost reach the right side. That branch also has an opening. The fake trunk is also vertically tall. I sometimes call ropes 'water dogs' as they seem to act like dogs that just seem to live in water. From my experience I can say that they do like their chins rubbed. I've dealt with these critters in a 30 gallon tank with no issue. It isn't so much a matter of the actual tank size as long as they have room to move whether horizontal or vertical. This is why I used a tall fake and hollow tree trunk instead of broken slate to build caves. They just need movement space. They don't care if it is horizontal or vertical.

2) No, I did not say that I had agate in the tank. I said that in past tanks I used agate for my South American Cichlids. The current tank has no agate as my local store does not carry. Sigh, you may be totally right as to soft water for South American Cichlids but that MAY just be their wild environment. When fish are bread in captivity things change. I have had Blue and Yellow Acara, Jack Dempsey, Green Terror and convicts along with a rope, pleco and cory in a 30 gallon tank using nothing but agate as the gravel and no filtration other than under gravel. They all thrived and I never had an issue. I doubt that I'll populate the current tank with any of the Cichlids I've stated as I want the tank for ropes.

I'll be honest I dont really know how to respond to this, I'm really not trying to be rude but theres just no way even at the smaller end of your scale, it is ok to keep a 15 inch fish in a 20 gallon tank, which is likely to be 2 foot long or a narrow 3 foot. They are a big fish, they need room. A 20 gallon fish for that look is a Khuli Loach a 3-4 inch fish.

Seriously fish is a great website and their profiles are put together brilliantly, I'd really recommend reading through their profiles and chatting here before you go ahead with your plan.
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/erpetoichthys-calabaricus/

I know your old tank is not in question but I think it is maybe a good example of how things might have moved on since you last kept fish, 5+ cichlids in 30 gallons with all of them capable of growing over 6 inches and 2 of them hitting 10 is just unfathomable.

Wills

 

[jaylach]

Wills, I see nothing rude in your comments, just a person that is concerned.

To be honest I've been concerned about a rope in my 20 gallon especially as it is a cube. I have a VERY bad habit of sometimes talking about what I want rather than the reality of what I'll end up with. Still I will say that I've had a rope in a 30 and 50 gallon tank for many years and they never got longer than about 10 inches... Mayhaps I just had runts or mayhaps they restrict growth to water volume although I've never seen reference related to growth being restricted so doubt that is the case. Possibly a moot point anyway as they seem to be about impossible to find.

The Khuli Loach you mentioned looks pretty cool.

 

[jaylach]

Again this is directed at Wills...

Thank you for really making me think. As much as I hate to say it ropes are out of the picture for my 20 gallon cube. I REALLY want another black Lab but refuse to get as it would not be fair to put a lab in my one bedroom apartment. Putting a rope in my cube would be like putting a lab in my apartment, just not fair to the critter. In both cases they would survive but would probably not be real happy.

I just want to sincerely thank you for helping me open my eyes to reality.

It is like I'd LOVE to have few hundred gallon salt tank with a leopard shark which WILL restrict growth to ~6 inches per 50 gallons of water volume but it just isn't practical as you can't keep anything else in the tank except food fish.

 

[Wills]

Thats great thanks for taking it on board it’s so hard to get tone right in messages sometimes.

When you start out a tank it’s worth working out what your water is like in terms of hardness and the pick fish accordingly it’s best for the fish but also for the keeper as fish in the right water will be healthier more relaxed and behave more naturally.

Do you know what kind of water you have? Sometimes your water company will have something on their website to help

Wills

 

[jaylach]

Do you know what kind of water you have? Sometimes your water company will have something on their website to help

At this point I don't know and could not find on their site. It is probably in the water quality reports but that page comes up as not found.

Test kit is supposed to be here in three days so I guess I'll find out then.