SIP, my big momma shrimp, mother of colonies. Establishing first colony is hard!

I enjoy reading your post, I want to see some ember and neon fry show up in my tank. I have several 10 gallon and a 5 gallon tank sitting empty in my basement. If nothing else in a few months or a year I may try breeding them in one of those tanks. I use a TDS-3 meter to give me hardness reading in ppm and a PH-009(I)A meter for PH. They are easy to use and accurate and cheap.
 
I enjoy reading your post, I want to see some ember and neon fry show up in my tank. I have several 10 gallon and a 5 gallon tank sitting empty in my basement. If nothing else in a few months or a year I may try breeding them in one of those tanks. I use a TDS-3 meter to give me hardness reading in ppm and a PH-009(I)A meter for PH. They are easy to use and accurate and cheap.

ooohhh, I don't know whether I could just have empty tanks sitting around... lol! Can you imagine how tiny ember or neon fry must be? That would be challenging, adorable and fun! I hope you do manage to get some babies, and keep a photo log here showing how they progress!

Haven't heard of a TDS-3 meter before, but sounds useful so I will check it out, thanks :)
 
This means a lot to me, thank you! I'm really happy to hear that you think I'm doing a good job with husbandry. There's always room for improvement, naturally, but it can be hard to take in so much information, along with differing opinions, and always question what you're doing! Fish keeping seems to be relatively newly studied, with new information about different species being published, opinions changing, and others disagreeing, loudly, lol. It's like if you look up information about keeping betta fish! Lots of persistent myths out there, newer information has been published, and people will argue about whether they can be kept with other fish or not all day long. Many here saying absolutely not, never! Others arguing that they've done it for years successfully. I've read about how bettas live in their natural habitat, but searched without success for film or documentary type info about how they live in the wild, if other fish of different species share the same water etc. Many scientific papers are behind a paywall. So then it comes down to a matter of common sense combined with personal opinion, and making your own mind up. I'd be upset if someone who knows better kept them in an unfiltered, unheated 2.5 gallon bowl, but not going to yell at someone if they have a healthy looking betta in a 10 gal with some raspboras. To me, not many people will have a flawless set up. A pretty good tank with some flaws doesn't mean they're a terrible fish keeper and the fish should go.

At the moment, my otos look really good to me. They're active, eat well, school together, and have chubby little round bellies anytime they're suckered to the glass. Seeing the difference between my original four I got in November compared to the new four I picked up in May/June really showed me the differences between a thriving oto and a struggling, stressed and hungry one. My LFS isn't a bad one, I promise, but clearly being wild caught, shipped, then put into shop tanks that don't have an established algae coat and relying entirely on algae wafers is rough on the poor guys. I didn't examine the oto tank closely when I bought them, I just asked how long he'd had them for, and asked him to bag four for me.

Drip acclimated them when I got home, then got a better look at them. One had the damaged tail, but don't know if that happened when netted or in shipping. Was concerned for bacterial or fungal infection since the top half was gone right up to the body, so kept the water very clean with plenty of water changes. I did lose that one after a week. They all looked so small and skinny compared to my original four. When they suckered to the glass, their bellies were absolutely flat, which worried me since mine were always rounded no matter if they'd just been fed or not. Overall body shape wasn't as filled out as mine, and their colours were more muted. I didn't quarantine these, because I was concerned they would't get enough algae and biofilm to eat without being in an established tank, since mine seem to do nothing but graze and take little rests all day, then play and school at night. I think shipping and being in a clean tank in a shop for a month, only being fed once or twice a day really had them so skinny and stressed :(

Within a few days though, they all had the round bellies, and now after the newer batch have been been there for two months, I can't tell the difference between them and the four that have been in there for nine months. I hope the hard water isn't doing long term damage to their kidneys, but at least for now, they're not stressed, starving or dying off, and aside from the harder water than ideal, it's a little oto heaven, lol. I deliberately cultivate some algae in the tank for them and the shrimp, have lots of plants with hiding places, and they love the Indian almond leaves when you snap them and curl them so it's like a little cave, and they eat whatever biofilm and micro creatures the leaves produce.
Also give them a variety of extra foods. I keep a log of everything that is going on in my tanks, like maintenance, births and losses, so will continue to monitor them and see how long they live for.

I'll keep working on how to do soft water though, since I'd love to try to breed Otos one day. If we as a hobby can figure out how to get them to breed more readily in captivity, we can stop them being wild caught. Sorry for the essay ranting, I just haven't been able to talk to anyone else who is interested in fish for a long time, have a lot of stuff to get out, lol.

Regarding the difference of opinions, that is always going to happen. We are constantly learning no matter how long you have been an aquarist and people are going clash in regards to the correct way to do something, this doesn't make anyone in particular right or wrong( as long as its not ludicrous) and as long as it discussed in an adult and friendly manner.

In my opinion Betta's should always be housed as a solitary species but this doesn't mean that people haven't had success as a community fish, but we should try to replicate our aquariums as close as possible to the natural environment and habitat but as you mention an aquarium with flaws doesn't necessarily make it a bad one.

As long as you are changing your water on a weekly basis on a sensibly stocked, cycled aquarium your fish will be in a happier place than what some are providing. Half of the problem is the fact that most of the aquatic shops give out such terrible information. People are sold far too many fish for the 10 gallon aquarium they have just purchased and then only find out they have a problem when they start doing their own research or problems arise with usually a water quality issue.

Tank size has changed dramatically over the years in regard to the size that is required for what you are housing but we have all been guilty of many things regarding how we have housed fish in the past.
 
Regarding the difference of opinions, that is always going to happen. We are constantly learning no matter how long you have been an aquarist and people are going clash in regards to the correct way to do something, this doesn't make anyone in particular right or wrong( as long as its not ludicrous) and as long as it discussed in an adult and friendly manner.

In my opinion Betta's should always be housed as a solitary species but this doesn't mean that people haven't had success as a community fish, but we should try to replicate our aquariums as close as possible to the natural environment and habitat but as you mention an aquarium with flaws doesn't necessarily make it a bad one.

As long as you are changing your water on a weekly basis on a sensibly stocked, cycled aquarium your fish will be in a happier place than what some are providing. Half of the problem is the fact that most of the aquatic shops give out such terrible information. People are sold far too many fish for the 10 gallon aquarium they have just purchased and then only find out they have a problem when they start doing their own research or problems arise with usually a water quality issue.

Tank size has changed dramatically over the years in regard to the size that is required for what you are housing but we have all been guilty of many things regarding how we have housed fish in the past.
I totally agree with you. We all learn from each other, I have kept aquariums since around 1989 and I am still learning new things everyday.
 
I totally agree with you. We all learn from each other, I have kept aquariums since around 1989 and I am still learning new things everyday.

I got my 1st aquarium when I was 18 and dabbled in and out of it though my 20s and 30s but around the 35 year old mark was when it became a passion, that's 10 years ago now. So you could say I've been housing various species for 27 years but only seriously for 10. It became more of a pleasure as I matured and settled down.

As you say, still got plenty to learn .
 
I got my 1st aquarium when I was 18 and dabbled in and out of it though my 20s and 30s but around the 35 year old mark was when it became a passion, that's 10 years ago now. So you could say I've been housing various species for 27 years but only seriously for 10. It became more of a pleasure as I matured and settled down.

As you say, still got plenty to learn .
[/QUOTE
I was the same way, had "pretty" tanks just for looks at first then for years had 6 tanks where I bread some fish like mollies but I really did not take it seriously. Had lots of plastic plants and made lots of mistakes with my fish. Had all sorts of fish but I admit I did not always know what was best for them. Now I concentrate on a few types of fish like tetras for my soft water fish. My hard water tanks are platy and guppy. I still have one tank with a LOTR theme and a castle that I have for my granddaughter so she can watch the fish. I want to try to give my fish a more natural environment. I also raised RES turtles from babies, they are now 25 years old.
 

I think most of us start out with plastic plants as they seem like the easy option, especially if you haven't got green fingers! but its surprising how easy it is to grow some of the less demanding varieties, I've never ventured into Co2 as I'm cautious when it comes to growing an algae out break but its something I would like to try in the future.

Massive LOTR fan here, books and the films, wouldnt mind a gander at you themed aquarium if you have pictures?
 
I think most of us start out with plastic plants as they seem like the easy option, especially if you haven't got green fingers! but its surprising how easy it is to grow some of the less demanding varieties, I've never ventured into Co2 as I'm cautious when it comes to growing an algae out break but its something I would like to try in the future.

Massive LOTR fan here, books and the films, wouldnt mind a gander at you themed aquarium if you have pictures?
Here are some pictures, Last year I had it in my 55 gallon tetra tank but decided to do a sunken forest for a more natural look and moved it too a 30 gallon tall. I put it on a coffee table so my 1 year old granddaughter could stand and watch the fish.
 

Attachments

  • GEDC1166.JPG
    GEDC1166.JPG
    266.1 KB · Views: 97
  • GEDC1311.JPG
    GEDC1311.JPG
    298.6 KB · Views: 95
Unlike livebearers shrimps won't just keep breeding until the tank bursts. Even though it sometimes looks that way the population will not grow out of control. They slow down as the tank fills. If you move some of them into a new tank they will be straight back at it. I sometimes go through stages of 3-4 months where I don't see a single berried female and then suddenly it all kicks off again.

I wouldn't bother about diversity unless you are breeding for show or sale. My colony has been going over 3 years. I started with 10, 3 died in the first week and then one day I had lots. After about a year I thought I had killed them all (I still don't know how or why). I did a few large water changes and a few weeks later a few tiny shrimplets came out of wherever they had been hiding. Now I am back into the hundreds. No health issues or deformities. There are a few quirks (imperfections if you are a breeder or showing) that I have seen carried from generation to generation but they are all healthy and thriving.
This is all really good to know, thank you! It makes complete sense that they control their own population. Might be my experience with livebearers, who absolutely would breed until the tank burst given the chance, making me paranoid there ;) I still have so much more to learn about shrimp, and hearing things like this is so useful. I was wondering about genetic diversity since most people seem to start a colony with 10-20 shrimp, and I was down to a final pair, but thinking about it after reading this, it's also likely that those initial 10-20 also came from the same original colony, and are closely related too.
Again, guppies have made me paranoid. I would introduce new blood now and then to keep the lines vigorous, and didn't know if people did the same with shrimp or not; but they are a more simple organism, and with self imposed population control, that makes things much simpler. Wonderful that you haven't needed to add any others for three years, and that they're still going strong! I didn't want them to overbreed themselves until the population busted and started starving off before reaching a balance, but it's awesome that I don't need to be concerned about baby skrimps going hungry. Wasn't concerned about bioload or physical space though the way I have to be with guppies, one of the best features about shrimp!

No plans at the moment to go into shrimp breeding for show or profit. They're very much for my own enjoyment! I had thought about selling some to my LFS if they wind up breeding into the hundreds. It would be a big help if selling some could help offset the cost of my hobby a little. My job is very rewarding and I love it, but it isn't exactly highly paid. My LFS would be happy to buy half decent shrimp from me, but my colony is too new and precious for me to consider removing any and parting with them yet! I would have kept every single guppy fry too if tanks and cash were unlimited! :hyper:

I do really want to get a colony of blue neocaridina going at some point, I really love the blues. Tempted to put some in with my reds, but I've read that that ends up mixing and diluting the colours, encouraging them to return to the wild type colours. I have some females that are a lovely deep red. Not a high grade or anything I don't think, but still nice and bright, but I also have several shrimp in there that are almost transparent, with the wild type striping. I have no problem with that for my own tank, still love the little guys, but wouldn't want to encourage the lines to go back to wild type over time either. Maybe I'll hold off on the blues until I can have them in a separate tank.

"don't grieve to long over your momma, they have fairly short lives and as you have seen give back a lot." Thank you:) This has been a rough week. I had to make the hard decision to say goodbye to my 17 year old cat on Tuesday after trying to get him through an illness that meant a lot of vet visits and trying to nurse him through bad patches. Earlier this month, came close to losing my elderly dog to a sudden illness too. Fortunately, the vet was able to save my dog, and he's recovered wonderfully, but saying goodbye to the cat I've had for so long has been awful. It's been an emotionally hard week, and I'm soft hearted and get attached to things like guppies and shrimp, so took it harder than perhaps I might at another, less vulnerable time. Being down to that last pair made that female extra special, since I knew that every other shrimp bar the male was there because of her, so also very happy and proud of her. :wub: She did what she needed to do and secured her genetic future. I'm very grateful for your advice and your kindness with the otos and the shrimp, thank you.
 
@essjay Please forgive me for tagging you to pick your brain again!

I'm still waiting for new test kits to arrive, but found the test strips I used before I got the API master kit that I'd forgotten I had. They're the JBL EasyTest 6in1, and measure GH, KH and pH, along with chlorine, nitrites and nitrates. Do you think these might give accurate readings? I don't think the nitrite and nitrate readings are that great compared to the API kit, but maybe the GH and KH are okay.

Reason I ask is because between work, taking folks to medical appointments, and other commitments, I'm not going to have time to go and get RO water for at least another week or two. My dad used rainwater from his covered rainwater barrel in his tank for years without ill effect, since the gutter is protected and barrel has a lid, and I understand that rainwater is softer than tap? Figured I might be able to at least start making the water a little bit softer in the oto tank while working on getting the things I need. Will test it to make sure it is actually softer first, of course. I did test the rainwater and untreated tapwater using those strips last year (I'd just got them, and was excitedly testing everything!) because when I used the strips in my tanks, I got different results than I did when testing my dads old established tank, and I wondered if it was the rainwater making a difference.

I have the test results in my tank log, taken the 9th August last year.

Rainwater
NO3 0-10
NO2 0
GH >4
KH 10
pH 6,8

Untreated tap
NO3 50
NO2 0
GH >21
KH 20
pH 8

My other question is how rapidly to switch them to a softer water tank. I guess one way would be to drip acclimate them for a couple of hours then put them straight in to softer water, as if I had just bought them from a shop. But my inclination is to do things slow and steady, so they're not stressed from the big changes. So I'd like to set the tank up with some of the water from their current tank, and fresh conditioned tapwater, and start gradually mixing some rainwater in there, to bring the hardness down gradually and give them time to adjust. So say, 50% tank water, then 30% fresh conditioned tap, and 20% rain. Then next water change, add a bit more rainwater to the mix, and so on. Any thoughts?
 
When I switched to RO I changed 20% daily for a week and then switched to 75% once a week. Doesn't have to be daily - I'm not very patient. Your rainwater sounds perfect for a betta and the otos. You would have to think about "creating" similar water when we have a long dry period and there is no rainwater.
 
I think AdoraBelle is going to use RO but doesn't have the time to go and get some just at the moment and since she has access to rain water she's going to start off with that.

Rain water should in theory have the same composition as RO.
 
When I switched to RO I changed 20% daily for a week and then switched to 75% once a week. Doesn't have to be daily - I'm not very patient. Your rainwater sounds perfect for a betta and the otos. You would have to think about "creating" similar water when we have a long dry period and there is no rainwater.

Thank you! Eeekk, I'm so excited, it's kinda silly, lol! I do plan to get RO water too when I can, but it's also great to know that I should be able to use the rainwater when that's not possible and it's available. Running out of rainwater during dry spells has already happened, have been thinking about attaching a second water barrel to the first one to help with that, but at least RO is available not too far from me when needed, from the company you linked for me before :)

My dad is in his 80s now, and has some old fashioned ideas about how to maintain a tank. I think he might also be forgetting some things that they used to do, because I distinctly remember helping gravel vac his tanks when I was kid, the process was like magic to me. So he must have been better about tank husbandry back then.
When I moved in last year I took some interest in the tank, it looked grotty, but mollies were breeding, and it was fun to watch. Then a gourami was getting bullied, and I bought my first 15 gallon to set up as a hospital tank. I started reading around to try to work out how to save him, and got bitten by the fish bug. Didn't manage to save the gourami, sadly, but that tank became my guppy/oto/shrimp tank.

He is stubborn, and getting confused. The more I learned, the more horrified I was by the tank. He did things like switch off the filter in the hood for a few days "to rest the motor", then didn't connect that to the water getting super cloudy for a few days... He doesn't trust tapwater or water conditioner, so would only allow me to use rainwater from the barrel on his tank, which became a problem during these dry spells when the barrel was dry.

He claimed they never did so many water changes back in his day, and grumbled about my doing water changes on my tanks 1-2 times a week. Refused to let me change the water in his tank. I was doing stealth water changes with tap water when he was asleep or out of the house like a water changing ninja. He only ever topped the tank up for a long time, not doing water changes, until I showed him test results showing his nitrAtes (@essjay ;)) reading at over 100ppm, and I explained how they were dangerously high, and that science had changed. That not doing water changes was probably why his tank crashed a couple of years ago, and he lost most of his fish.

He's accepted me doing water changes on it now, but not as often as I'd like. I've been using a mix of rainwater and tap, which the fish must be glad for since there are mostly livebearers in there. He has a mix of soft water and hard water fish in there I realise now too. He's stopped turning the filter off, and let me add another filter to it. It's a nightmare tank, honestly, and I have to work on him gradually so he doesn't dig his heels in. It's hard for him to take fish advice from his daughter, when he ran an aviary and aquatics business for years, and I'm still new to the hobby. He has the say over the fish, but he has let me take over maintaining it, for the most part.

Just realised that basically his tank is soft water, while mine is hard. Explains why plants are doing well in mine, but struggle so hard in his. How the black mollies have lived in there for five years or more and kept breeding is a mystery.


I think AdoraBelle is going to use RO but doesn't have the time to go and get some just at the moment and since she has access to rain water she's going to start off with that.

Rain water should in theory have the same composition as RO.

I appreciate your help so much, thank you! <3 You guys are fish-lifesavers, and have helped me understand water parameters and what's going on in these tanks so much better. Thank you @seangee , @essjay and @mbsqw1d :wub:
Just tested the rain water and unconditioned tap water again, since I haven't tested them since last year and another test won't hurt. New results:

Tap water (no water conditioner added)
NO3 0
NO2 0
GH >21 or > 375
KH 20, or 357. Not sure whether to read the top or bottom number
pH 8,0

Rain water
NO3 0
NO2 0
GH either >3 or >4
KH 6
pH 6,8
 

Most reactions

Back
Top