Shrimp Die After A Water Change?

[nic1]

Hiya,
 
like the title says.... shrimp die after a water change- I change 20% every two weeks as I have heard less is more with shrimps, The population was at 50, but now its like 10.... I notice molt problems after 2 days with a white split near the head, and dead shrimp with no obvious cause.
The shrimp were breeding but I haven't seen any new shrimp that survive past a week.
 
I feed them bio max, about 4 pellets, they have an AL in there, fish flakes and half a pleco wafer-not all at once   and it is heavily planted. No other fish just MTS.
Water change straight from tap conditioned and temperature matched, I've tried aging the water by leaving it out with conditioner for the night also.
 
Stats are ok as far as I'm aware, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, ph 6.8, kh3, gh>6.
They have mineral stones, redmoor root and lava rock with three types of moss, java fern, hygrophila, amazon frogbit, and a banana lilly plant- 30Litre.
 
I did speak to a shrimp guy and he said change the shrimp tank water 20% each week with the tank water from my 300L (that gets two 30% changes each week) I havent done this yet.... I am actually afraid to do anymore water changes..... Anyone know whats going on?
 

 

[Ch4rlie]

I am actually of the opinion that more water changes is best rather than 'less is more'.
 
Shrimps are much more suseptical to water parameters so changing the tank water to keep the water clean and minerals from tap water is essential, as well as keeping nitrate levels low.
 
The only thing you do not mention, is what specie of shrimps you keep. This may be a factor.

 

[StevenF]

Molting problems maybe cause by calcium or magnesium deficiency in the water.   Lava rocks will not help calcium and magnesium levels.  The mineral stones should be releasing miners but maybe they don't have any magnesium.  You GH is high enough that calcium and magnesium deficiency shouldn't be a problem. but again it doesn't distinguish between calcium and magnesium.   You might be just missing one and that might be causing your problem.
 
 IF your water is very soft this can occur.  Put a couple decorative snail shell in the aquarium.  They are naturally made from calcium and magnesium carbonate.  They will gradually dissolve over several years and maintain safe  levels in the water.  If that doesn't work you might have something toxic in the water.  Check your utility  water quality report to see if anything stands out.  If the shells don't work you can try diluting you tap water with some RO or distilled water to reduce the levels of anything toxic.
 
I have been using RO water which doesn't have cacium and magnesium.  and shrimp always died.  Once I added Calcium and magnesium carbonate they survived.  Now if I could just convince my fish that shrimp are not food  My flower and amano shrimp are too big for my fish but they do occationally eat my blue dream shrimp.

 

[nic1]

I have red cherry shrimp, the hardier of the species so they say!
I did have a look at the water stats online and nothing really jumped out at me... I think that I may start changing the water every week to every other week as there are quite a few snails and they are big waste producers also.
I do live in a soft water area.... what snail shells shall I put in there? can I buy these or can I just fish out the old empty shells from my ramshron tank? I have calcium block here also... and cuttle bone.
What do you reckon to the advice given to me.....changing my shrimp water with water from the bigger tank?
 
Thanks btw!

EDIT: I have just noticed hydra in the tank!!-added a pond snail to take care of them.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Ah, hydra, if indeed you have hydra, this can answer why some of your shrimps may have died, but imho, not all of the deaths imho. Its a partial answer.
 
Here is a useful link which explains more of hydra and how to remove them.
 
http/www.planetinverts.com/are_hydra_harmful.html
 
Btw, you confuse me when you say -
 
"I think that I may start changing the water every week to every other week as there are quite a few snails and they are big waste producers also."
 
Thats less water changes, rather than more, so that would be counter productive if you have a number of snails, which are basically a waste factory
 
And no, do not change water from one tank to another, thats does little imho. Stay with treated tap water. Perhaps doing a mix of 50% R) water with minerals and 50% tap water may help if you feel the need to have RO water.
 
And Red Cherry Shrimps are amongst the hardiest of shrimps to have, so your water parameters should be fine for them. Though its at the lower end of the spectrum for them but shoudl be ok.
 
http/www.planetinverts.com/Red%20Cherry%20Shrimp.html
 
The only other shrimp specie i think are equal to RCS in terms of being most forgiving with water parameters are the Amano shrimps fyi.

 

[nic1]

Oh yeah- that's meant to be the other way round! its the summer holidays and the kids have scrambled my brain!
I'm not going to use RO water, I haven't got access to it just yet.
OK, so what I will do is weekly changes with aged water over night (not from the main tank) to try and get rid of the hydra, and add in extra calcium by way of shells (what shells?

)
Transfer any MTS to the main tank to reduce waste and pray.......

 

[StevenF]

 
 
what snail shells shall I put in there? can I buy these or can I just fish out the old empty shells from my ramshron tank? I have calcium block here also... and cuttle bone.

Any snail shell will work. They are all the same composition.  The cuttle bone is also calcium and magnesium carbonate.  I am guessing your plants are depleting something in your water causing a deficiency that is killing the shrimp.  The other possibility is there is something in your water killing them.  Using RO pure RO water will remove any toxic material but it will also remove micro nutrients your plants need.  You could use Seachem Flourish comprehensive to RO water to provide everything your plants and shrimp need.  Or you can mix RO water iwth Tap water.  If there is a deficiency in the water Seachem Flourish will fix that.  But the most common deficiency associated with molting issues is calcium and magnesium and snail shells are  the cheapest solution to fix calcium and magnesium deficiency.  
 
As to letting the water age before use, that will only allow toxic gases to separate from the water.  The most common toxic gas is chlorine.  A water conditioner should remove all chlorine without the need for aging the water.  What water conditioner do you use?

 

[Baccus]

Hydra can be a long battle to dispose of, but I have quite a bit of fun using a length of airhose to suck the hydra off the glass, you may need to use the edge of the hose to help dislodge the hydra but then they go straight up the airhose siphon and can be disposed off. I use this hydra hunting as part of my water change routine so at times the there maybe as much as 50% water change.
 
To me with the deaths it sounds as though the water changes have not been frequent enough, meaning as each day passes the shrimp acclimatise to a growing pH level, then when you do a water change after 2 weeks or more the new water throws out the pH that the shrimp had over the past weeks got accustomed too. It is these sort of pH shocks/ swings that can kill shrimp. Changing the water can also promote shell sheds and breeding. I have seen where female shrimp have ended up in trouble when a water change has been done when they where not quite ready to shed but do so anyway. There is no way that you can time your water changes to suit every shrimp in the tank but if you keep say a weekly time schedule where for example 25%  of the water is changed every sunday evening most of the shrimp should end up suiting the rountine.
 
For one of my native shrimp tanks I pre-age the water sometimes for as long as a week before putting the water to use, when I first put the water into the tub I use to age it with the water dechlorinator I also add an airstone to bubble away and help the water and chemical mix as well as make other chemicals gas off. This aging was advised to me by a native shrimp breeder and it has certainly not harmed my shrimp, in fact it has promoted the growth and survival of the shrimplets.
This is my native shrimp and snail tank also housing Spotted Blue Eyes for mosquito control
 

 
Shrimp can have issues with water that is too hard or to soft. Too hard and the shrimp are able to make shell easily but can have trouble breaking out of it when the time comes to grow. Too soft and the shrimp simply can not form new shell properly. One of the ways to tell what your water is doing is to look at the MTS shells, if the shells are eroded and breaking down then your water is most likely soft acidic, if they are well formed and hard as nails then your water is most likely hard and alakaline. To improve calcium in tanks I have heard of people adding the white powdery part of cuttlefish shells to the water and even chicken eggs. Personally I would not do either because if the cuttlefish where self collected from a beach there is a very good chance that the porous part has taken on chemicals like petro chemicals while floating in the ocean. Eggs from chickens may have been treated with all sorts of chemicals and if I was going to add egg shells I would only ever consider using organic ones. Recently (well a few months ago now) I added shrimp mineral balls to my various shrimp tanks, these are designed for the fussier Crystal shrimp and their relatives. When I first placed the balls in the tank (one per tank and you can buy balls of different sizes to work in different volume tanks) the shrimp and snails swarmed over the shrimp balls but now I rarely see any snails or shrimp actually picking at the balls so I think the shrimp are getting exactly what they need now.
 
You could get something like these easily
http/www.ebay.com.au/itm/Shrimplab-Balls-3pcs-Big-White-Mineral-Balls-for-Crystal-Tiger-Cherry-Shrimp-/252301482026?hash=item3abe57182a:g:BskAAOSwDuJW0Y3f
 
These are similar to the ones I ended up getting
http/www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mineral-Life-Balls-2-5cm-Enhancement-Supplement-Mineral-For-Crystal-Red-Shrimp-/172141574268?var=&hash=item28146ff87c:m:mru89p5xYcWhQ1EFBNQmzLg
 
I also give my shrimp a varied diet, as a standard they get good quality tropical fish flakes followed by crayfish pellets and dedicated shrimp food as well as catfish wafers and algae wafers. The shrimp really go mad for the protein in the catfish pellets. All my tanks also have natural timber but I also add Indian Almond leaves and fresh green or dead mulberry leaves. Some breeders I know also give their shrimp organically grown kale and banana. In my tanks I also have lava stone like this
https/www.livefish.com.au/plants/aquascaping-rocks/lava-cave-roack.html
this tends to gradually breakdown over time and would also be adding minerals to the tank.

 

[Alasse]

I personally would put the deaths and no noted breeding down solely to the hydra....they are a predator

I have red cherries in a tub and it only gets water changed every 3-4 weeks, they are breeding like absolute maniacs

 

[nic1]

Thats interesting Steven, the plants in the shrimp tank are growing crazy out of control, and I don't use any ferts, This is a picture of the tank two months ago,
This is a picture of the tank taken today
I pull out and throw away hand fulls of plants each week.
 
I use Tetra aqua safe on the shrimp tank, and API on the other tanks, when I transferred some plants over to the bigger tank a couple of baby shrimp tagged along and they grew quite fast and were a real vibrant red, but I spotted my platy with the shrimp in its mouth. (Like you I got to convince them shrimp are friends not food!)
 
The reason why I use a different conditioner is because the guy who had the tank before me said he used that one with no trouble.
 

Baccus, I was actually looking at those mineral balls last night, they are meant to last up to two years. I am going to buy some now from ebay.
Today I am going to try and suck up some hydra and move some MTS into the other tank. Every time I do a water change I will prepare a bucket for the following week.
 
Alasse, I wish my shrimp were was prolific as yours!

 

[nic1]

Forgot to say, that I added in one ramshron snail to clean the inside of the glass when I first got the tank and his shell doesnt show any evidence of cracking or going white, if anything the new shell growth is a lot darker and looks stronger from the time I added him in. The MTS also have strong shells.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I use Tetra aqua safe on the shrimp tank, and API on the other tanks, when I transferred some plants over to the bigger tank a couple of baby shrimp tagged along and they grew quite fast and were a real vibrant red, but I spotted my platy with the shrimp in its mouth. (Like you I got to convince them shrimp are friends not food!)

 
Just how do you convince a platy, or any fish for that matter, that shrimps are friends not food?............

 

[nic1]

Haha, I have no idea! Bribing them would be out of the question! mind you I did teach a platy to stop picking on my old cory by putting him in a breeder net for a day every time I saw him nipping at the cory. Hes stopped doing being a bully to him now and moved on to picking on the other platys, but they can hold their own!

 

[Rodders]

I've recently had no luck with RCS. I've put about 30 in my cycled 60ltr tank, with some white minnows and I think I can see one walking around. All the rest died, their back split and showed white.
 
I've checked all the GH and KH etc... and all within RCS specs. I added some white mineral rocks for shrimp, I added a shell to dissolve down. My Ph is 7.4, temp 24'C
 
I do have CO2 and read conflicting stories about it, so I can only put it down to that for me, but cant be 100%

 

[nic1]

Yeah CO2 and shrimp dont mix too well...
My shrimp arent doing quite so well still, Ive pulled out the red moor root just in case it was affecting the PH, made a siphon out of a syringe and air line tubing so I can really clean the gravel, put in mineral balls, scrubbed the mineral rock to activate it again, pulled out as many MTS as I could find, hunted down and removed the hydra (I think its all gone) added shells and turned up the temp 2 degrees, I carry out 30% water change every Thursday with week aged temp matched water and drip it back in with air line tubing over two hours, but I always find shrimp with failed molts... Im down to 5 now... its a sorry sight. 
No matter what I put in Im always pulling out dead shrimp, Ive also added almond leaves, and a penny sized bit of cuttle bone, Im thinking that I might just get some small fish and if the shrimp die out I haven't got an empty tank.