Shelby's Diary

The sunsun powerhead you have linked is apparently quite good for the price. I would still go with two of them though (one at either end) as if you only have 1 and it breaks or stops working the tank will die rapidly. Even more important as you will not be there all the time to make sure there is backup systems in place.

The lights you have at the moment will be fine until you start getting corals.

The flow from the canister filter doesn't really count as its not going to be that high.

You can live without a skimmer, especially while the tank is cycling. I would recommend getting one eventually though as they do help a lot.
 
Definitely plan on getting a skimmer. Probably the Red Sea one. Will see about getting 2 of the double sunsun powerheads if they still have them when I am ready for them. If not 3 of the single sunsun's will do. I know that the rock and sand just has the bacteria but with a freshwater tank you add amonia to "feed" the bacteria. Was just wondering what happens if my tank is cycled and I don't have the money for the fish righ away. How do I keep it cycled without the good stuff dying?
 
Food breaks down into Ammonia, fish waste does aswell. So even if you just chucked a couple food pellets into the tank, it will break down into Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate.

When you get high levels of Nitrate, the last stage of the Nitrogen cycle, you will need to do a 25% water change, to reduce the level of Nitrates. You can also get some Sphagetti algae I believe it's called, which will actually feast upon the Nitrates which will basically generate an Eco-system in the tank.

Fish will poo/waste food = Ammonia breaks down into/ Nitrite which breaks down into/ Nitrate = plant food for the spaghetti Algae = Cycle.

This doesn't mean you will be completely free from water changes, as you will need to do them periodically, but it should help to reduce the overall amount you do :good:

If i'm wrong about any of this someone please correct me! Thanks :good: :lol:
 
With liverock you generally have quite a few critters living and dying on it which keeps the bacteria levels up. Wouldn't hurt to chuck a bit of food in it from time to time though as an ammonia source until you get fish.

You can get different macro algae to help reduce phosphates and nitrates but I wouldn't worry too much about that at this stage :)

3 of the smaller sunsun pumps will be fine. Don't panic if they are fairly loud to start out with. Most powerheads can take a few days to bed in and settle down.
Just the one double powerhead would probably have worked but I have had powerheads fail on me before and if you only have one the whole system falls down. 3 smaller ones might actually work better as you can place them in different parts of the tank to get better all round flow.
 
I would recommend 3 smaller ones, mainly due to failure. If you buy one pump which fails then the tank will be left without flow, whereas if you have 3 individual pumps, there is significantly less chance of ALL 3 pumps failing. Unless you have a powercut, as then your up sh*t creek :good:
 
I read somewhere that if you chuck in a shrimp like you'd buy at your local market (for human consuption) and let it rot it will help cycle your tank faster. Not that I'm in a hurry just thought it was an odd suggestion.

Oh and as an update on RO water. My boss is checking into just having a system installed in his house (if he can get financing or rent to own) Otherwise we are going to be stuck ordering 14 5 gallon bottles from Culligan for 65.00USD

EDIT:
Great news... RO system being installed June 1!!
Are these the powerheads I can use? 3 of them? http://www.reefshops.com/sunsun-jvp-101a-wave-maker-vibration-pump.html
 
Great news on the RO.

Three of those powerheads will give you more than 30x turn over, which will be great flow.
 
Great news on the RO.

Three of those powerheads will give you more than 30x turn over, which will be great flow.
And at a great price too!

I'm coming up with a list of questions and possibilities. I'm sure the "old hands" will get tired of answering the same questions 500 times but I really want to make sure I get this right. My boyfriend is dead set that I am going to fail with this. He's a bleeping bleep sometimes and I have to prove him wrong as often as possible. Once I get my list put together I will be making a LONG post!

You guys have been great so far so hopefully you'll have a tad more patience for me! I made so many mistakes with my tropical tank I really don't want to mess this up!

Shelby
 
Reading your journal with interest. Good luck with it all. I'm thinking of kicking off a spike with a dead freshwater shrimp too...
 
No need to kick start a cycle in a marine tank your LR will do all that for you you are more likely to extend your cycle than kick start it :good:
 
Ok.. I have tons and tons of questions! I think the more I read the more confused I get! Sorry if I continually ask the same questions over and over :blush: :X

Ok here goes my list of questions and the way I am currently understanding things:

1- Top Offs
when I top off my tank (evaporation) I use just RO water because water evaporates and the salt doesn't. The salinity rises as water evaporates.

2- Salinity
my salinity should be 1.024 - 1.026 at all times.

3- Mixing Water
When I mix my water for changes I need a bucket, salt, heater, and power head. I plan on having 3 powerheads in my tank so I should probably buy a fourth one for just mixing water so I'm not taking on in and out of my tank?

4-Heaters
I've read that water should be between 75F-80F degrees.
Is 300w going to be enough? I'm going to go with 2 150w heaters in case one goes kaput with a 3rd 150w heater to use in my mixing bucket and to have as a backup.

5- Sump
I'm going to be going sumpless and I have a whisper 30-60filter and a magnum350 canister filter.
A- Is there something I can put in those filters to help with filtration?
B- If so, What is it, how would I put it in there, and when is it necessary?

6-Algae Scraper
A- Do they scratch the glass?
B- What happens to the algae when you scrape it? Does it just fall into the tank and some sort of critter cleans it up? I'm very confused about that!
C- How often would a healthy tank require scraping?
D- Do the magnetic ones really work?

7- Live Rock
A- When you put in your live rock do you use something to make sure it doesn't topple over or does it just balance in there?
B- Should it be on top of your sand bed or do you move the sand out of the way and place it directly on the glass bottom?
C- I thought I read that it shouldn't touch the side glass so you can scrape off algae if needed around it?
D- How much should I get?
E- I'm planning on building this tank really slowly and am in no hurry to add fish so I can do a little at a time as long as my parameters are good for a couple weeks before I add fish to avoid any amonia spikes from any die-off correct?
F- If you order it online is it still live when it arrives? I know it would not be considered cured anymore. How long (average) does it usually take to re-cure?

8- Live Sand
I've read mixed feelings about this stuff some say yes some say no.
A- does it really work and do anything for your cycle?
B- if not what type of sand should be used?
C- Is it better to have a fine grain or a medium grain?

9- Powerheads
I plan 3. I'm assuming one on each end and one in the middle. Which directions should those be pointed in? The ones on the ends, should those be at the end of the back wall of the tank or on the side walls?

10- Skimmers
Planned skimmer http://www.walmart.com/ip/Prizm-Hang-On-Protein-Skimmer-100-Gallon-Capacity-Fish-Aquatic-Pets/3635758 From what I understand
A- I will not need this until I put in corals
B- what about fish? will I need it for fish?

11- Books

has anyone read "salt water aquariums for dummies" ?? and is it accurate? lol
 
Ooooh lots of questions :)

1. Top off Yip RO water for the reason you say there are auto top up devices out there I would recomend one of these

2. Salinity idealy you need to pick a level and stick with it I use 1.026 and keep my tank at this at all times quiet easy with an auto top off and refractomter

3. Correct best to have a power head just for this a cheap Koralia 1 would suffice or nano best to leave the water heated and agitated for at least 24 hours

4. I would go with 2 x 200w and would also recomend a ATC 800 this is designed to stop over heating issues a very good addtion

5. I would not worry about adding filtertion media into cannisters your tank will hold all you need but these would be good for a phosphate remover also Carbon

6. Algae scrapers are ok most will be fine on glass acrylic is a diffrent matter the magnet ones are good just be very careful not to get sand under them else you could end up scratching the glass I clean my glass daily

7. Live Rock will maintain some life even if transported but it will take longer for the tank to mature but not an issue B-) placing the LR against the glass will be a pain as it will build up algae around the edges best just to leaave it off, LR can be stuck together with KZ Speedglue or Milliput. or placed securely.

There are a few thoughts how to place LR I prefer placing mine on egg crate then aquascaping then add your sand it works for me and am happy with it if rocks fall the egg crate spreads the load etc.

8. Live sand is a personal choice not needed I have used both live and non live makes little diffrence

9. point the powerheads in all different directions will mix the flow up in the tank :nod:

10. I would look to see if you can get a deltec or aqua medic but not sure what is available state side these 2 manufacturers seem to give the best results, The skimmer is neeeded for fish as well as it removes there waste from the water column.

11. Sorry not read that one
 
The reason I asked about the book is because this tank is being set up at my bosses house and he is legally blind. He was wanting to know if there were any books I could read to him about it and I figured that one had to be fairly simple!! :lol:

For test kits I need the saltwater master and the reef master don't I?
 
All good questions! From the sounds of it you have been reading up a lot and I expect this tank will turn out really well :)

1- Top Offs
when I top off my tank (evaporation) I use just RO water because water evaporates and the salt doesn't. The salinity rises as water evaporates.
Correct, top up with RO water. Later you may want to look at getting an auto top up unit as this makes life a little easier. try not to leave it too long between topping up as having the salinity swing up and down is stressful to the livestock

2- Salinity
my salinity should be 1.024 - 1.026 at all times.
Correct again. Have it on the lower end of the scale if you are going fish only, have it at the upper end if you are having inverts and corals (I keep mine at 1.026)

3- Mixing Water
When I mix my water for changes I need a bucket, salt, heater, and power head. I plan on having 3 powerheads in my tank so I should probably buy a fourth one for just mixing water so I'm not taking on in and out of my tank?
yep, just get a cheapo powerhead and a small heater for making up the water. If you get an old style power head (which you can attached pipe too) you can then use this for filling the tank too. Just mix the water in the bucket and when your done put a tube on the pump into the display tank to pump the fresh made saltwater into it. Ideally you want to mix the new water up for at least 24 hours to make sure the salt is properly mixed and to give it enough time for the O2/CO2 to stabilise.

4-Heaters
I've read that water should be between 75F-80F degrees.
Is 300w going to be enough? I'm going to go with 2 150w heaters in case one goes kaput with a 3rd 150w heater to use in my mixing bucket and to have as a backup.
Yep two 150w heaters is better then 1 300W heater. These will do for heating this tank unless the house is absolutely freezing. If your budget can stretch to it I would recommend getting a heater controls such as the one linked below. I recently had a heater get stuck on which wiped out a LOT of my livestock and something like the heater control would have saved me.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk//ATC-800%20-THE-NEW-DIGITAL-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER:pACK-3_W0QQitemZ330426665920QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&rvr_id=&cguid=aafee67a1280a0aad565a305ffd376fb


5- Sump
I'm going to be going sumpless and I have a whisper 30-60filter and a magnum350 canister filter.
A- Is there something I can put in those filters to help with filtration?
B- If so, What is it, how would I put it in there, and when is it necessary?
Is the whisper filter a hang on the back one? If so you could turn this into a small refugium for macro algae (how you do this depends on the filter but its something we can look at later).

For the canister filter have some course filter foam at the start of it (typically at the bottom) then phosphate remover at the top. Phosphate remover needs replacing regularly (you need to test your phosphate to know when, when the phosphate starts going up replace the remover). The foam will need cleaning regularly (I clean the mechanical filtration on my tank once a week). Nothing else is needed (and you could live without putting either filter on).


6-Algae Scraper
A- Do they scratch the glass?
Are you talking about the magnetic ones or the ones on a long handle? See below for fuller answer.
B- What happens to the algae when you scrape it? Does it just fall into the tank and some sort of critter cleans it up? I'm very confused about that!
It just floats around, some filter feeders will eat it. If you have a skimmer and mechanical filtration this will remove it too.
C- How often would a healthy tank require scraping?
Depends on a lot of things. I have a high phosphate issue in my tank so have to go over the glass pretty much every day at the moment.
D- Do the magnetic ones really work?
Yes but with caution.

Magnetic algae scrapers are a god send but you have to use them with caution.
1) Make sure you get a good quality one. I have bought cheap ones in the past and they scratched the hell out of my tank.
2) Make sure you get one that floats. It will fall off at some point and one that floats is easier then having to put your arm in the tank to retrieve it :)
3) When using a mag clean in a marine tank never leave the wet side in the water after you have finished. You will get marine critters living in there and most of these have hard shells which will scratch the glass when you move it. When I have finished cleaning off my glass I move it so its above the water line.
4) be very careful when using it around sand. if you get sand caught between the glass and the scrapper it will scratch the glass.

The long handled algae scrappers are useful to have as well. Again be careful which one you get (some are better then others) and be careful how you use it. If you have one with a razor blade in then make sure the edge of the blade is always flat against the glass and never slide it sideways or use the corners of the razor. If you have an acrylic tank never use a metal scraper. I have a long handled scrapper with a metal razor blade on the end for removing coraline algae (which is calcium based and very hard) and for stubborn spots of green dust algae on the glass,


7- Live Rock
A- When you put in your live rock do you use something to make sure it doesn't topple over or does it just balance in there?
you will find a lot of it locks together well by itself. you can get marine putty that you can use between rocks to stick them together and it cures under water.
Example:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TMC-Reefers-Epoxy-Putty-120g---Coralline-Reef-Putty-_W0QQitemZ400079757096QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&rvr_id=&cguid=aafee67a1280a0aad565a305ffd376fb#ht_3197wt_982


B- Should it be on top of your sand bed or do you move the sand out of the way and place it directly on the glass bottom?
Definitely directly on the glass bottom. If you put it on the sand there is a good chance that things will be digging about in the sand which could cause the rock to topple. If you dont want to put it directly on the glass you can put down a layer of egg crate first, then the rock on that and then sand around it.

Example of egg crate:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Filter-Media-Support-Grid-Koi-pond-filters-/160435320342?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PondsWaterFeatures_UK&hash=item255ab0b616#ht_500wt_924


C- I thought I read that it shouldn't touch the side glass so you can scrape off algae if needed around it?
Yep basically make sure you leave enough of a gap between the rock and any pane of glass you want to be able to clean. Otherwise you end up with spots you just can't get a magfloat/algae scrapper to.

D- How much should I get?
Between 25-30KG. Traditionally Reef keepers have been told that they need massive piles of LR to handle the filtration. this is rubbish and has lead to most marine tanks looking like a wall of rock along stacked up along the back wall of the tank. This IMO and experience is a bad idea. It just gives you rubbish water flow around the tank and ends up with loads of dead spots with no flow where all the crude builds up and rots away. I would start with 20KG in your tank and see how it looks. When building it up try to leave gaps between the rocks for water to flow through.

E- I'm planning on building this tank really slowly and am in no hurry to add fish so I can do a little at a time as long as my parameters are good for a couple weeks before I add fish to avoid any amonia spikes from any die-off correct?
Correctly. Once all the rock is in test ammonia and nitrite. Once these have been at zero for at least a week test your nitrate. if its above 5-10 do a decent sized water change and then you are good to start stocking. I would add some clean up crew first (I highly recommend just getting a mixture of different snails, hermit crabs can be too destructive and aren't actually very useful). You can also start adding fish but try not to add too many at once and give it 2 or 3 weeks before adding any more.

F- If you order it online is it still live when it arrives? I know it would not be considered cured anymore. How long (average) does it usually take to re-cure?
(edit - missed this one the first time). It depends on how far it has to go, how they package it and how good a quality it is. It should still be live as long as it isn't allowed to completely dry out but you will get a lot of die off on it (meaning a longer cycle). How long the cycle will take (i.e. how long it will take to re-cure) again depends on a number of factors. It could be as little as a couple of days or as long as a few weeks. I have bought LR online before but would definitely recommend either buying it from someone who is breaking down their tank or from a LFS as then you can pick the pieces you want and there is likely to be a lot less die off (so more life in it and a shorter cycle).

8- Live Sand
I've read mixed feelings about this stuff some say yes some say no.
A- does it really work and do anything for your cycle?
Its complete rubbish and at best is just expensive aragonite sand. At worst it can cause massive phosphate and ammonia issues.
B- if not what type of sand should be used?
You want aragonite based sand. Dont use silica based sand as this will cause algae issues later on.
C- Is it better to have a fine grain or a medium grain?
Generally down to personal preference and can also depend on what stock you are planning to keep. I prefer to use fine grain sand as I think it looks nicer. However if you have fish/inverts that like to make burrows then you may need to gets some larger grain sand and some crush coral/shell sand so they can build with it. You may also want to have a mixture of different types of sand in different areas of the tank as this encourages the most amount of bio-diversity for critters to live in (some will live in fine sand while others will live in the crush coral sand).

Alternatively (again if you dont have fish/inverts that like to live in the sand) you can skip the sand all together. This might not sound very good at first but it does have its advantages. For one its a lot easier to maintain. You get less detris build up and the stuff that does get built up is easier to remove with a gravel vac then when you got sand in there. In a lot of tanks when your looking at it you cant really notice the botom of the tank anyway unless you are close up. Also the bottom panel of glass with eventually get covered over with coraline algae (the nice looking purple stuff) and if you want to corals (some corals like green star polyps are very easy to get growing over grass and will form a nice mat over the bottom of the tank so you wont see it anyway. Most people dont go with a bare bottom tank though. Mine has been running without sand for over a year now and while I prefer the look of sand I do think running without sand can help keep the system a lot more stable and cleaner (still debating if I'm going to put sand in mine or not yet :) ).


9- Powerheads
I plan 3. I'm assuming one on each end and one in the middle. Which directions should those be pointed in? The ones on the ends, should those be at the end of the back wall of the tank or on the side walls?
This will depend on how you arrange your rock work. There are a few things you are trying to achieve and how you do it depends on your setup.

When placing powerheads you want:
1) Good water flow through the whole tank with little or no dead spots where crude can build up.
2) Good water flow around all of your rock. this is why piling the rock against the back of the tank is a bad idea as then it never gets any flow around the back of the rock.
3) "Random" water flow. ie you want to try and get it so the water doesn't all go in one direction. Generally you can get this by having the flow from two powerheads going across each other. This creates random eddies which the corals prefer. Most corals wont do will in linear, non-random, flow.
4) A good mix of high flow and low flow areas around the rockwork for coral placement. Some corals prefer high light and high flow so these are best placed at the top of the rockwork near the output of a powerhead in high flow. Others prefer low flow and low light so better place in a more sheltered spot near the bottom/middle of the tank. Then of course you get all the other corals that can fall inbetween or need any combination of light/flow. This is where good aquascaping comes into its own. Its difficult to begin with as you dont know what kind of corals you will get or what kind of flow/lighting they are going to need. I will write a bit below about aquascaping to try and help.

Generally though one at each end and one in the middle pointing towards the front glass works well.


10- Skimmers
Planned skimmer http://www.walmart.com/ip/Prizm-Hang-On-Protein-Skimmer-100-Gallon-Capacity-Fish-Aquatic-Pets/3635758 From what I understand
A- I will not need this until I put in corals
B- what about fish? will I need it for fish?
Havent seen the prizim skimmers but from what I have read a lot of people dont rate them very highly. Have a look around for a second hand deltec or TMC skimmer. The fish will be fine without a skimmer but the purpose of a skimmer is mainly to remove the fish waste from the water. If you are keeping corals with fish then I would highly recommend getting a skimmer before you start adding corals.


11- Books

has anyone read "salt water aquariums for dummies" ?? and is it accurate? lol
[/quote]
I haven't read this one but most of the "general" marine fish keeping books I have read are pretty dated and not too good. there are some very good subject specific books out there about fish and corals though which I would highly recommend, Eric Bourneman is often quoted on these forums when people are discussing corals. The problem is that the marine keeping scene is moving on quickly as new things are discovered about the livestock we keep and new ideas are tried and proven to work (for example LED lighting). Any book that is printed is likely to be pretty much out of date within 2 years as new methods are found to keep fish or marine tanks better.

Bonus section - Aquascaping
Aquascaping is one of the hardest things to get right IMO. As I mentioned before traditionally we have all been told we need to have massive piles of rock in our tank and most marine tanks do just have a big well of tightly packed rock leaning against the back of the tank.

This IMO and experience is really bad because:
A) You have rubbish water flow through the rocks so many surfaces are not doing anything for your filtration.
B) You have limited spaces for corals. Flow rates across the rock at the front is pretty much the same across the whole front. The only way to increase the flow rate in one area is to add more powerheads (more equipment, more cost and more junk in the tank). Also you don't have areas where you can isolate corals (either quick growing ones you don't want to spread or ones which are aggressive and you don't want to sting other corals). Then you have to worry about the ones at the top over growing the bottom ones. You will still be able to place corals and succeed but it is a lot more difficult.
C) Not a lot of swim room for fish and not a lot of defined areas for territories. this can lead to territorial fish fighting over the best spot because there is not enough diversity for them to be able to spread out.

Good Aquascaping tips:
1) Always place rock either directly onto the bottom pane of glass or put down a sheet of eggcrate directly onto the bottom pane of glass and the rock on top of that. Never put rock onto the sand as it will sink and critters will burrow under it until it eventually falls over.

2) Dont have the rock work touching any of the side panels of glass (including the back). For the sides and front this is mainly because it makes the glass easier to clean. It also though gives a much better feeling of depth to the tank.

When relating to the back of the tank though the biggest issue is flow. If the rock is piled up against the back of the tank then the back of that rock is not getting much flow and you will end up with loads of crude building up back there. Also all of that rock surface that is hidden against the back pane of glass are areas where fish could be grazing/swimming/sleeping or you could be growing corals/macro algae.

3) Try to create lots of "stepped" surfaces on the rock face. By this I mean imagine your rockwork to be like stairs. On each step you can then place corals without the ones high up on the rock over growing the ones on the bottom and cutting out their light.

Steps and ledges work a lot better to give you room for place corals (and giving different flow areas) then slopes. Placing corals on slopes tends to lead to corals over growing each other (bigger ones at the top shadow ones underneath). It doesn't have to literally look like a flight of stairs and having some areas of rock at the top over hang areas of rock lower down makes it look more natural and creates lower light areas lower in the rock, as well as areas fish fish and inverts to live in.

4) When stacking the rock try not to pack it too tightly together. Ideally you want water to be able to directly touch almost the whole surface of every rock you put in place.

5) A piece of rock buried under a wall of tightly packed rock is going to be getting little to no flow and might as well not be in the tank. I have often seen some really nice aquascapes which had a load of rock in the middle of a stack. With a little more though that could have got the same look but with less rock in the middle. This would have given more areas for fish and critters to get into, better water flow and would have meant having to get less rock.

6) Make sure all rock is secure. You would be surprised how strong some fish and critters can be and a determined snail can quickly topple a badly piled stack of rock. Use reef epoxy often to help re-enforce things, its expensive for what it it but its a lot cheaper then waking up to find you have had a rock fall in the night and your tank is now spread over your living room floor :)

(sorry for posting a picture of my tank in your thread but just wanted to use it as an example)
Example: this is my tank and the aquascaping isn't perfect but I have tried to put it together in a way that gives me maximum flow around the tank while leaving me the most space for coral placements. I was a bit limited in my aquascaping due to only having smaller bits of LR.
fishtank11thmay2010003.jpg


Left hand side: Large bits of rock. Very loosely stacked together. This is about 5 or 6 large bits of LR and except for where they touch there is between a 1inch and 4 inch gap between each rock. this means each rock is getting a lot of flow around it. I have also left a lot of ledges around here for coral places as well as caves and over hangs for non-photosynthetic corals and for inverts such as shrimp that tend to like to live in overhangs.

Middle: This bridge bit was built from around 4 or 5 bits of medium sized live rock. I drilled holed and stuck them together using acrylic rod and marine putty. again there is very good flow around each rock as well as good places for coral placements directly in the middle of the light in high flow.

Right hand side: From the front This looks like a big pile of rock. These are not stacked as loosely as I would like due them them mainly being small bits of LR. However its not as big a pile of rock as it looks. From the back there is a cave going under the rock and it also curves around toward the front so there is actually about a foot of water between the back of the rock and the back of the tank where I have a huge bit of macro algae growing.
I have left parts of the right hand side "unfinished" to I can put new bits of rock onto it if needed. This is because often corals will come already attached to rock so its best to leave some room for them.


Hope that helps a little and sorry for waffling on. Been thinking about writing a few posts up recently for new people to get an idea of how to set their tank up so put quite a few of the things I had in mind into this post :)


Edit: Sorry there are a lot of typos in the above (that's what you get for writing an assay while you are talking on the phone at work!) will try and fix them if I get time but if anything doesn't make sense just ask.
 

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