Shattered!

[raptorrex]

the government could make more
money out of cigarettes if they dropped
the price of them they are losing more
revenue from cigarettes to the black
market.i have seen the long term
psychological affects of cannabis on
a friend of mine who is now a
bipolar schizophrenic
and i have also seen the affect
drink can have on people like my
mate Simon who as been dead for
15yrs or more and you use tobacco
to smoke cannabis anyway all the things
we have been on about have pros and cons
or there all as bad as each other me myself
used to get high on life but even that as
as it pit falls

right that's my rant over i wont comment anymore
on this thread

indeed so. i too have seen the effects of abuse of drugs. though its decades ago, i lost two friends to heroin. but i have lost far more to alcohol and (its claimed,) tobacco. and still more it drunk idiots in cars!!!!!!!!!!! how come you get longer, in prison, for two raps of scag, than killing somebody,in a car, when drunk?
but i agree, "they are all as bad as each other".
so, all banned, or none? making rules, on the grounds of, social acceptability, never works. but if you use scientific evidence, laws would be turned on their head.

its a conundrum. but, ignoring the involvement of organised crime (and that is directly caused by its prohibition), the problem is nowhere near as bad as prople think. just looking at numbers will confirm that.

 

[the biffster]

the government could make more
money out of cigarettes if they dropped
the price of them they are losing more
revenue from cigarettes to the black
market.i have seen the long term
psychological affects of cannabis on
a friend of mine who is now a
bipolar schizophrenic
and i have also seen the affect
drink can have on people like my
mate Simon who as been dead for
15yrs or more and you use tobacco
to smoke cannabis anyway all the things
we have been on about have pros and cons
or there all as bad as each other me myself
used to get high on life but even that as
as it pit falls

right that's my rant over i wont comment anymore
on this thread

indeed so. i too have seen the effects of abuse of drugs. though its decades ago, i lost two friends to heroin. but i have lost far more to alcohol and (its claimed,) tobacco. and still more it drunk idiots in cars!!!!!!!!!!! how come you get longer, in prison, for two raps of scag, than killing somebody,in a car, when drunk?
but i agree, "they are all as bad as each other".
so, all banned, or none? making rules, on the grounds of, social acceptability, never works. but if you use scientific evidence, laws would be turned on their head.

its a conundrum. but, ignoring the involvement of organised crime (and that is directly caused by its prohibition), the problem is nowhere near as bad as prople think. just looking at numbers will confirm that.

i agree i said i wasn't
going to say anything else
on here but i had to say this
i had to grow up quick when i was
14 as my dad was killed by a drunk
driver every body was say that bike were
death traps as my dad was on a motorbike
but it wasn't the bike that killed my dad
it was the drunk bloke behind the wheel
of the car it as bad as a loaded gun

enough said

 

[simonas]

I can;t say I agree about the amount of pot smokers who smoke 123 bags a day is low and that the average smoker is the guy on the train. I had a wild time as a youth and tried everything so don;t have a clouded view but I have worked in a very busy court and police station for the last 9 years and disagree. Heroin is on the decline, crack is on the rise, cocaine is on the rise especially with young lads going out although the quality of coke is terrible but skunk is definately the next big problem!! The amount of kids 13 upwards really and younger adults are absolutely caning the stuff leading to the same aquisitive crimes that heroin users used to commit because they;re "addicted " to pot. Its not pot anymore its skunk at a far more expensive price which due to the consistency of it is easier to smoke more of. ts strong and is causing a huge amount of people to have drug induced psychosis.

My views may seem extreme but I'm in court every day dealing with about 8 people everyday and see the messy side of things. Granted I live in a very rough criminal area but I would imagine that most large town city areas would be the same

I agree with you on beer though, always said it to my wife and shes never agreed cos of the stigma with hard drugs but ale is responsible for most of the murders, rapes, robberies we deal with and certainly for most of domestic violence plus our clients who die tend to be alcoholics, the heroin addicts go on forever!!

 

[moochy13]

i agree with rapotorrex and freedomfighter. i actually had a discussion about this with one of my friends, and came to much the same conclusion. the guy who responsibly enjoys a quiet smoke at his house with a couple of friends or his missus is just a joe blogg ordinary guy. working in an office, mowing peoples gardens, working in the local supermarket, whatever. i know quite a few people who smoke aged between 20-50+, male, female, they all support themselves/families with jobs, they're sensible and dont push their views on the matter. the press like to portray any and all drug users as a drain on society and a threat to the general public, and its bollocks. im not saying everybody who smokes is a saint, hell they're not even all like the average guy described above, but normal people, using 'normal' weed in a normal way i think is perfectly acceptable.

i think problems arise from chemically enhanced weed, but mroe importantly the fact that because weed is not legal it cannot be regulated, controlled and monitered. everybody i know would be happy to pay a bit extra (to the taxman) if it meant they knew where it was coming from, it had been produced responsibly (not in the destroyed shell of an unsuspecting landlords rented house), and they knew what was in it. nobody wants to smoke contaminated weed, and would pay extra to make sure they wern't.

we all read the stories last year about government funded labs producing data describing the benefits and dispelling some of the percieved dangers of smoking, but despite the countries best scientists working on it, the government couldnt afford to listen, and the scientists quit their position, which i expect were richly paid. i also read an article a few days ago saying if you have alzheimers in the family, smoking weed can drastically improve your chances of avoiding it.

we all seem to be at the conclusion that drink is far more damaging on the country and the NHS. i also believe it is far more damaging on those around you. ive never seen a fight started because somebody had one to many puffs on a spliff. a disagreement is more likely to end in giggles and a bowl of crisps from my experience. one too many beers and a misheard comment or misunderstood eye contact, and there could be fists and glasses everywhere. which in a pub full of peope is bad news. but alcohol brings in too much money for the government to restrict.

i also believe that if weed was legalized, it wouldnt all of a sudden mean everybody wants it and we'll be stuck with a country full of bob marley and the wailers tributes. i reckon numbers of users would barely change personally. if you want to smoke it, you already do, legal or not. making it legal isnt suddenly going to woo non smokers over. drinking is legal, not everybody does it. as with everything, its fine in moderation. a little flutter on england at the world cup ? stupid , but legal and harmless. gambling your lifesavings away unable to feed your family? legal and very harmful.

then theres the tax thing. as mentioned, the money that could be creamed off a drug that is certainly no more damaging than alcohol is colossal. if my kids/grandkids (i have niether) getting better schools, better NHS, better job prospects, recovering economy, better country to live in, id happily pay extra. id certainly prefer it over giving the money to some guy where evntually the money will end up in dodgy hands.

then the the case of Holland/amsterdam. i have been, though on a college art trip so the cafes were not part of the tour, but it all looked very civilised, relaxed, happy, and safe. i know, typical response to the topic blah blah blah. but clearly regulated use of weed can be achieved if an open minded government is willing to investigate. i'd rather go sit in a nice cafe than have to hide in a bus shelter or behind a wheelie bin. i dont know if the dutch/local government tax it or anything, ive never really looked into it.

sorry if ive ranted on a bit or broke some rules or something, its an argument im interested in. while there are definitely arguments for both sides, i think a lot of people (who dont smoke) are blinkered by media hype. and the government is scared to get involved. yes a lot of people know somebody who has had a bad experience on weed (usually dirty weed that could be outlawed), but as biffster pointed out, we also know people who have succumbed to drink. i lost an uncle to drink assisted suicide, hasnt put me off drinking, but im not an idiot about it.

also, simonas. hope you've recouperated

 

[rdp50734]

I am sorry but I do not agree with all the talk of the beer starting fights due to misunderstood eye contact or a misunderstood word.

I have been a heavy drinker since I was 11, I have drank in some of the roughest pubs in the council estate areas including the local pubs for local people types! I have also been drinking in pubs since 14. In all my time in pubs I have only ever seen 4 fights in the buildings. It is not alcohol that starts it, it is the person who drinks too much without the ability to keep themselves in check.

A lot of the fights that have been outside are straighteners, where two people openly agree to fight by themselves fist on fist. Afterwards it is forgotten and the two have a drink, or one is on his way to hospital. Either way it goes no further, no police, no smashing up peoples houses or cars. It is done and dusted. Most of the time they dont get to go outside, someone usually says come on lads give it up and its left with words.

One lad did get stabbed after a night out and the lad who did it was drunk, but he had also been smoking weed and snorting coke. I do not believe it was anyone of these things but a combination. I do not know many people who take coke that does not have a drink with it! Most of these who take the drugs have started from poppers, who many people will say it is harmless. But my point is there is a stating point from every way you look at it. If any of you know coke users, heroine users ask them " Did you start staight on coke/heroine and the answer will almost always be NO.

 

[moochy13]

i dont know how old you are, but im 25, been in pubs nearly 10 years, and have already seen far more than that and i have never seen a fight that had the dignity of 'you v me' then its done and dusted. from what ive seen, they inevitably turn into a brawl because one guy sticks up for his mate, and his mate sticks up for him, then somebody bumps into somebody else who takes offence etc etc. im not saying drink always starts fights, course it doesnt. but i think its a much more likely 'fight starter' than weed.

saying that, you dont need to be intoxicated in anyway at all to be a BKYGYTP(H in a pub. last new years i was in a pub i used to work in, and there was a regular who had a few to drink, but he was always happy and friendly to everybody, no trouble at all. he was dancing about in the bar, when he spun round and knocked a bit of drink over a woman. nothing major, just a splash on her arm. the boyfriend, who seemed pretty sober to me, reacted angrily despite the girlfriend telling him she was fine. he seemed to just want to start a fight. the happy regular got shoved to the ground, somebody else stepped over explainging it as an accident, the boyfriend swung a punch. next thing i know about 15 people are brawling, and somebody's going to hospital because a fruit machine fell on them.

unfortunately people dont seem to have that dignity and honour of fighting and accepting apologies, certainly not where i live.

 

[raptorrex]

"addicted " to pot. Its not pot anymore its skunk at a far more expensive price which due to the consistency of it is easier to smoke more of. ts strong and is causing a huge amount of people to have drug induced psychosis.

here the the thing. there is not physical addiction to pot hash or whatever you call it. though psychological addiction is possible, thats a problem with the person, not the drug. there is evidence that, a very few, suffer psychosis. but again, its the person, the drug is not the cause. it simply brings it to the fore. the key word, to me, is "induce". to induce something, it must already be there. there are few, if any, scientists that claim marijuana 'Causes' Psychosis. but some feel it can "induce" it. there is a massive difference.
lets face it, with over 5 millon users, we would be overrun with psychotic people, if the drug CAUSED the problem. as that is, clearly, not the case. it becomes a matter of personal view. much like the contention that people steal to feed a habit. how is that conclusion reached?
because they had grass in their possession?
because they said they did?
because they are "pot heads" caught stealing?
there is plenty of evedence that suggests these people would be stealing, anyway, for whatever reason.

@simonsa. I'd like to go back to the way police treat dealers.
in the area i live, there are three dealers who sell marijuana. one takes stolen goods, and does the odd rap of amphetamines. he, contantly has the plod at his door, and is regularly arrested.
the other two, sell only for cash. sell nothing but marijuana. it the ten years i have been here, they have never been arrested. though they have had visits. its impossible the police do not know they sell. so why no arrest? i have seen the same in both London and Leeds, over the decades.

 

[rdp50734]

i dont know how old you are, but im 25, been in pubs nearly 10 years, and have already seen far more than that and i have never seen a fight that had the dignity of 'you v me' then its done and dusted. from what ive seen, they inevitably turn into a brawl because one guy sticks up for his mate, and his mate sticks up for him, then somebody bumps into somebody else who takes offence etc etc. im not saying drink always starts fights, course it doesnt. but i think its a much more likely 'fight starter' than weed.

saying that, you dont need to be intoxicated in anyway at all to be a bellend in a pub. last new years i was in a pub i used to work in, and there was a regular who had a few to drink, but he was always happy and friendly to everybody, no trouble at all. he was dancing about in the bar, when he spun round and knocked a bit of drink over a woman. nothing major, just a splash on her arm. the boyfriend, who seemed pretty sober to me, reacted angrily despite the girlfriend telling him she was fine. he seemed to just want to start a fight. the happy regular got shoved to the ground, somebody else stepped over explainging it as an accident, the boyfriend swung a punch. next thing i know about 15 people are brawling, and somebody's going to hospital because a fruit machine fell on them.

unfortunately people dont seem to have that dignity and honour of fighting and accepting apologies, certainly not where i live.

Thats the point, if you have people who are intent on fighting or showing their worth to their mates/partners then they will regardless of drink or drugs!
People around my area mostly know each other and half of them are related to each other in some way shape or form! I was an outsider as a child, I had to fight just to go to school. And yes it was a tough area to grow up in, but to me thats just boys being boys. Unfortunately for some they never get out of the boyhood! As we all got older it was more accepted that adults were in fact that and yes there have been silly arguments over who put 50p on the pool table, but they get sorted. Maybe its just where we live they have a bit more respect for one another not to gang up on one.

Even in one pub in Birmingham they had a weights room. If there was an argument in the bar they were asked by the management to take it to the gym. Not many went in there! It was left at words and that pub is 15 miles from me.

 

[the biffster]

so what about the ones who take drugs
drink and cause a fight just for kicks
i used to know plenty of them and it
usually me that had to go and pick up
the peaces or sort the mess out

 

[rdp50734]

Thats exactly the point! As I said its the person who is responsible drugs and drink dont make people want to go fight. If people fight its because they want to!

 

[the biffster]

yeah and it was always left
to the daft #19### like me to
go and sort it out or bail them
out or explain why the boyfriend/
son was in hospital with brain damage
after having them kicked out

 

[simonas]

I am sorry but I do not agree with all the talk of the beer starting fights due to misunderstood eye contact or a misunderstood word.

I have been a heavy drinker since I was 11, I have drank in some of the roughest pubs in the council estate areas including the local pubs for local people types! I have also been drinking in pubs since 14. In all my time in pubs I have only ever seen 4 fights in the buildings. It is not alcohol that starts it, it is the person who drinks too much without the ability to keep themselves in check.

A lot of the fights that have been outside are straighteners, where two people openly agree to fight by themselves fist on fist. Afterwards it is forgotten and the two have a drink, or one is on his way to hospital. Either way it goes no further, no police, no smashing up peoples houses or cars. It is done and dusted. Most of the time they dont get to go outside, someone usually says come on lads give it up and its left with words.

One lad did get stabbed after a night out and the lad who did it was drunk, but he had also been smoking weed and snorting coke. I do not believe it was anyone of these things but a combination. I do not know many people who take coke that does not have a drink with it! Most of these who take the drugs have started from poppers, who many people will say it is harmless. But my point is there is a stating point from every way you look at it. If any of you know coke users, heroine users ask them " Did you start staight on coke/heroine and the answer will almost always be NO.

you need to sit in a magistrates court in a busy town one day and see what the common theme is for violent crimes... its drink. We've had about 6 murders come through our place in last year or two and its all drink related so can;t agree with you on that one. Kids who canlt handle ale do some dispicable things on it

I have my own views on weed which is generally negative now as I know its skunk which is readily available and not resin which used to be common but beer is the worst of the lot and I type this having just had 7 pints

 

[shasm]

Being a recovering drunk, i say it is all bad. Does that mean I think you shouldn't drink or use, no, just don't do it round me. To legalize drugs is impossible, I do not want to be working around someone who is high running a 600 Ton Punch Press. But the truth is as far as what someone does in there own home is up to them. But I just can't help and think of the lives that are forever destroyed by these demons. Some young people never get their lives back after just trying it(drugs or drink). Others never seem to develop any kind of addiction. I just wasn't that fortunate. But having said all this I still do not look down on someone who does enjoy a beer or a whiskey or whatever I think they have a right to. But the simple truth is that teenagers using is very dangerous and they are more likely to have or develop serious problems. Just my thoughts and opinion, no offense meant to anyone.

 

[raptorrex]

so what about the ones who take drugs
drink and cause a fight just for kicks
i used to know plenty of them and it
usually me that had to go and pick up
the peaces or sort the mess out

I've never met a drunk pot head, who could be bothered to fight, same goes for heroin users.

coke heads, yes. but, as a rule, coke heads are the dregs of socioty. and are so dim, they would fight their own shadows. its made worse by the fact many of them are on the, wealthy side. so they already have a false sense of superiority.

I've worked, on and off, in pubs for 32 years. and find not substance to the view, "its the people not the booze". its is the booze. its one of the things that make it so dangerous.

shasm, please i have no wish to offend you. but you did decide to air your views, in this thread
I feel you make the mistake of viewing others, through your eyes. your comment about someone running a press if drugs were legalised. assumes that anybody who uses a drug (any drug) will take it habitually, and be under its influence all the time. this just is not true, even now.

 

[Ben M]

i don't understand why people take drugs. kids my age at school (14-15) go drinking every weekend, and recently have started weed. my brother knows someone who's dad grows it, and he nicks it off his dad to sell at school. and some of the kids smoke tons of it. kids i used to like are constantly stoned now, and don't even recognise you. i've always been brought up with a bad view of drugs/alcohol, and i'll never tough either of them, but that's just my personal opinion.

i just don't understand it.

i don't really get the 'let's go camp in someones field and get drunk' thing either lol.

cheers