Serious Algae/Cyanobacteria Problem

[Byron]

Hi Byron,

below are photos taken today before a clean. Lots of cyano regrowing on the plants and hardscape. I haven't done a clean since Wednesday. Also brown algae/cyano growing on some plants.

I still don't know what to suggest, but there is clearly something wrong here. How long is the light on each day? And is it on a tier so it is consistent?

Aside from that question...I had a real problem in my 90g tank for three years. Organic bloom. The fish load was low, the plants thriving, 70% water changes, minimal plant additives...but every week everything was covered in brown organics, from the wood to plant leaves to the rott masses of floating plants; water continually hazy though that did finally clear after 2.5 years. I never did find out the cause, and when I moved last May 2019 I tore this tank down and sold it (empty) as I had to downsize my tanks. The few fish and some of the wood, and the plants (but not all of them) went into the 33g after I moved. Within 2-3 months, the organics problem returned and became unbelievable. Planaria appeared (never had these in over 30 years, but they appeared in this tank). This Spring I tore this tank down. Still no idea what caused this, though I suspect possibly one (or more) of the chunks of wood I had. Never saw this in other tanks with same type of wood (Malaysian Driftwood). Whether it was something leeching out of the wood, or the wood rotting, no idea.

 

[Martyn87]

I have spent alot of time battling algae of different sorts. Looks to me like a severe green algae issue in the first posts likely due to a combination of organics build up and excess light. We've mentioned spectrum and duration but not intensity nor the type of plants you're growing. Microscorum and the anubis are very slow growing, which leaves you open to algae. You can get by with very little light growing these.

With the addition of the cleaning, I would do a 5 day blackout. Keep on Deep cleaning and then drop down to one light and keep going with your fertiliser as your plants need nutrients to grow and I'm seeing deficiencies in your plant growth.

Get a mini power jet to push the water down to the front of the tank. What is the turnover of your filter in lph.

Remove your rowaphos too as it will mask your nutrient readings.

Good luck and dont forget we all get some algae growth, your not alone.

 

[Martyn87]

Can you post your tap water tests as well

 

[Henry.ager]

I still don't know what to suggest, but there is clearly something wrong here. How long is the light on each day? And is it on a tier so it is consistent?

Aside from that question...I had a real problem in my 90g tank for three years. Organic bloom. The fish load was low, the plants thriving, 70% water changes, minimal plant additives...but every week everything was covered in brown organics, from the wood to plant leaves to the rott masses of floating plants; water continually hazy though that did finally clear after 2.5 years. I never did find out the cause, and when I moved last May 2019 I tore this tank down and sold it (empty) as I had to downsize my tanks. The few fish and some of the wood, and the plants (but not all of them) went into the 33g after I moved. Within 2-3 months, the organics problem returned and became unbelievable. Planaria appeared (never had these in over 30 years, but they appeared in this tank). This Spring I tore this tank down. Still no idea what caused this, though I suspect possibly one (or more) of the chunks of wood I had. Never saw this in other tanks with same type of wood (Malaysian Driftwood). Whether it was something leeching out of the wood, or the wood rotting, no idea.

I have spent alot of time battling algae of different sorts. Looks to me like a severe green algae issue in the first posts likely due to a combination of organics build up and excess light. We've mentioned spectrum and duration but not intensity nor the type of plants you're growing. Microscorum and the anubis are very slow growing, which leaves you open to algae. You can get by with very little light growing these.

With the addition of the cleaning, I would do a 5 day blackout. Keep on Deep cleaning and then drop down to one light and keep going with your fertiliser as your plants need nutrients to grow and I'm seeing deficiencies in your plant growth.

Get a mini power jet to push the water down to the front of the tank. What is the turnover of your filter in lph.

Remove your rowaphos too as it will mask your nutrient readings.

Good luck and dont forget we all get some algae growth, your not alone.

Thank you both for your posts

Both my lights are on a 7 hour timer so it is constant, shall I turn one off?

I don't know the what kind of floating plant I have, it was given to me by a friend, but that seems to grow quickly.

Today when im doing a filter clean I have removed the rowaphos, but I have been told that my tap water has high phosphates (even though they don't show up on tests). Should I also remove my water purification and activated carbon in the filter?

Todays water tests from aquarium;
Temperature = 27.5 C
Ammonia NH4 = 0mg/l
Nitrate NO3 = 25
Nitrite NO2 = 0
KH = 20
GH = 8
pH = 7.6
Cl2 = 0
Phosphate = 0mg/l

Water Tests from Tap;
Ammonia NH4 = 0mg/l
Nitrate NO3 = 50
Nitrite NO2 = 0
KH = 20
GH = 8
pH = 7.6
Cl2 = 1.5
Phosphate = 0mg/l

I do have 3 different pieces of wood in the aquarium, I can remove and scrap these and replace with some new wood from an aquarium suppliers if you think it will help?

My max filter turn over is 900l/h.

 

[Martyn87]

Thank you both for your posts

Both my lights are on a 7 hour timer so it is constant, shall I turn one off?

I don't know the what kind of floating plant I have, it was given to me by a friend, but that seems to grow quickly.

Today when im doing a filter clean I have removed the rowaphos, but I have been told that my tap water has high phosphates (even though they don't show up on tests). Should I also remove my water purification and activated carbon in the filter?

Todays water tests from aquarium;
Temperature = 27.5 C
Ammonia NH4 = 0mg/l
Nitrate NO3 = 25
Nitrite NO2 = 0
KH = 20
GH = 8
pH = 7.6
Cl2 = 0
Phosphate = 0mg/l

Water Tests from Tap;
Ammonia NH4 = 0mg/l
Nitrate NO3 = 50
Nitrite NO2 = 0
KH = 20
GH = 8
pH = 7.6
Cl2 = 1.5
Phosphate = 0mg/l

I do have 3 different pieces of wood in the aquarium, I can remove and scrap these and replace with some new wood from an aquarium suppliers if you think it will help?

My max filter turn over is 900l/h.

a tank that isn't balanced causes algae growth this is the rule to remember.

Also I don't recommend keeping things like nitrate removers or phosphate removers in long term, also get rid of the activated carbon. You should only have that in after medicating or maybe refresh once a month and keep it in for just a week. They will hide issues your having and the carbon gets exhausted after a period of time.

Your tap water does have high nitrates, that in itself isn't an issue but when it isn't balanced with phosphate/potassium the plants won't be able to absorb the excess nitrate and thus the algae blooms. The broad rule of thumb for phosphate to nitrate ratio is 1-10. You have 5 x the amount of nitrate in the tank and no phosphate at all. Accurate test kits that show no phosphate, means there is no phosphate. What tests do you have and when did you buy it? I don't have a lot of faith in LFS advice.

Try reducting to just one light, use a fertiliser that has potassium and phosphate in it.

If it was me I would also go to using 60% RO water to bring down your nitrate. Or at least try it for a few weeks to get it under control.

You will have to add a neutral regulator to the RO to get the water alkalinity back up. Normal RO is about 6ish ph. A bit lower ph and hardness would probably suite the rams and tetra anyway.

Nerite snails love algae and if you don't mind a few they can clean up any left over mess.

 

[Martyn87]

What is the water purifier you mention in the filter media? Is that something you've added?

 

[Henry.ager]

a tank that isn't balanced causes algae growth this is the rule to remember.

Also I don't recommend keeping things like nitrate removers or phosphate removers in long term, also get rid of the activated carbon. You should only have that in after medicating or maybe refresh once a month and keep it in for just a week. They will hide issues your having and the carbon gets exhausted after a period of time.

Your tap water does have high nitrates, that in itself isn't an issue but when it isn't balanced with phosphate/potassium the plants won't be able to absorb the excess nitrate and thus the algae blooms. The broad rule of thumb for phosphate to nitrate ratio is 1-10. You have 5 x the amount of nitrate in the tank and no phosphate at all. Accurate test kits that show no phosphate, means there is no phosphate. What tests do you have and when did you buy it? I don't have a lot of faith in LFS advice.

Try reducting to just one light, use a fertiliser that has potassium and phosphate in it.

If it was me I would also go to using 60% RO water to bring down your nitrate. Or at least try it for a few weeks to get it under control.

You will have to add a neutral regulator to the RO to get the water alkalinity back up. Normal RO is about 6ish ph. A bit lower ph and hardness would probably suite the rams and tetra anyway.

Nerite snails love algae and if you don't mind a few they can clean up any left over mess.

Okay I will take the carbon out tomorrow. I took the rowaphos out today. The purifier is called Seachem Purigen https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002A5VK2/?tag=. Should that go too?

I use an Easy Life Phosphate test kit. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00P8VBO3I/?tag= . I have been using it for a year now. My fertiliser deliberately does not have Nitrate or Phosphate because I was told my tap water was high in phosphates, but it does contain potassium, magnesium and trace elements. What fertiliser would you recommend for me ?

I will unplug a light so I've got just one on.

I can get hold of some RO water so I can try this out.

Ill have a look at the snails too.

 

[Byron]

I agree with post #35 except on the addition of phosphate. Never add phjosphate to an aquarium, there is more than enough for plants from fish food. This is not going to help. I think we talked about a fertilizer without nitrate and phosphate earlier, that is ideal in any aquarium.

The nitrate in the tap water is a serious issue and needs addressing. Members like @seangee and @AbbeysDad have dealt with this issue, they can comment here.

 

[Martyn87]

Yes take the purigen out too. Is there a sell by date on the test kit?

Don't worry about excess phosphate, worry about the balance.

Drop a light, make sure the circulation is working all round the tank and right to the substrate. I'd keep with tmc light but get a liquid phosphate supplement. Something that only has phosphate and dose this separately if needed. You may find that with your water and fish/feeding that you don't need to dose phosphate.

Dropping the light does help but I think I would keep the lights off for 24 hrs then go one light on for 5 hours increase then every few days until you see algae start then go back an hour or 30mins.

With your water keep testing the phosphate levels and you want to hit 2ppm. So dose to get to 1.5ppm then water change when it gets to beyond 2ppm.

Try the RO as a last resort, we need to give it a week or two to see how you get on with the increased cleaning regime first.

 

[Martyn87]

@Byron he has excess ferts in the nitrate and he is removing phosphate. Look how many people ei dose. That has masses of phosphate in it, I've had algae free tanks with 4ppm phosphate and 40ppm nitrate. People have done the same experiment with upto 80ppm nitrate and 8 ppm phosphate with no algae because the tank is balanced.



He has to cut light and balance nutrients, as long as phosphate remains so low it will always be a limiting factor that allows the algae to feast on the excess nitrate.

The surface plants will then assist taking up the excess nutrients and also filtering some light.

 

[Byron]

He has to cut light and balance nutrients, as long as phosphate remains so low it will always be a limiting factor that allows the algae to feast on the excess nitrate.

The surface plants will then assist taking up the excess nutrients and also filtering some light.

I agree on the balance aspect in principle, and i agree on the benefit of surface plants. I do not agree on phosphates because first the nitrates must be remnoved before they get into the tank.

@Byron he has excess ferts in the nitrate and he is removing phosphate. Look how many people ei dose. That has masses of phosphate in it, I've had algae free tanks with 4ppm phosphate and 40ppm nitrate. People have done the same experiment with upto 80ppm nitrate and 8 ppm phosphate with no algae because the tank is balanced.

But I do not agree with all of this. First, EI is a totally different issue. We are in this thread dealing with a low-tech or natural planted aquarium. There is no benefit to dosing nitrate or phosphate in this type of tank. The plants will not take up the nitrate unless ammonia/ammonium is insufficient in balance with everything else. And there is more than enough phosphate in fish food for the plants in this set-up.

 

[Martyn87]

Thanks Byron healthy debate about adding nutrients vs limiting nutrients to tackle algae.

But I do not agree with all of this. First, EI is a totally different issue. We are in this thread dealing with a low-tech or natural planted aquarium. There is no benefit to dosing nitrate or phosphate in this type of tank. The plants will not take up the nitrate unless ammonia/ammonium is insufficient in balance with everything else. And there is more than enough phosphate in fish food for the plants in this set-up.

My experience is that failing to feed plants, gives algae the ability to thrive as the plants cannot out compete the algae

The thought behind adding the phosphate upto 1.5ppm is to allow the frogbit that has abundant CO2/light/nitrate to photosynthesise and suck up the additional nutrients. the water changes at 2ppm should keep it in check, I’m allowing 0.5ppm increase from food/fish waste.

With the new cleaning regime he is undertaking the phosphate might fail to increase at all as the tap water has 0 registering, which still leads to starving plants and heightened nitrate. The reduced light intensity may assist though.

The plants are also showing necrosis and nutrient deficiencies.

On the EI front this is just a method of dosing a tank with fertiliser, You can use it on both co2 injected and non co2 injected, but it relies on you feeding a tank so light is the limiting factor rather than nutrients or co2. (I was just using this as a reference to note how the principle work a for other readers)

I do agree that the best option is to use RO water to limit nitrate entering the tank but that’s quite a challenging final hurdle

 

[Byron]

My experience is that failing to feed plants, gives algae the ability to thrive as the plants cannot out compete the algae

Agree. Any imbalance of light/nutrients can encourage algae. Too intense light, or insufficient intensity, too much fertilizer, or not enough nutrients. Light is the usual factor of most significance, and after that CO2. Again, thinking of natural planted tanks.

The thought behind adding the phosphate upto 1.5ppm is to allow the frogbit that has abundant CO2/light/nitrate to photosynthesise and suck up the additional nutrients. the water changes at 2ppm should keep it in check, I’m allowing 0.5ppm increase from food/fish waste.

This is where I am not understanding the reasoning. I cannot understand how increasing phosphate could benefit Frogbit. I do not believe phosphate (phosphorus) in excess will have any positive effect. Citing from Peter Hiscock,

Phosphate is present in fish food, so levels are rarely deficient in the aquarium. In an average aquarium phosphate levels are frequently 1-3 mg/liter, while in natural conditions levels are normally only about 0.005 -0.02 mg/liter. Low phosphate levels are not normally a concern, but high levels can encourage algae to bloom. To grow strongly, algae require phosphate levels above 0.03 mg/liter; since these levels are usually exceeded in the aquarium, algae blooms are often the result. Under normal conditions, most phosphate is "locked away" in the substrate and unavailable to algae. There should be no need to add phosphate to a planted aquarium.​

And nitrate is not going to benefit plants in this type of system. Surface plants tend to thrive because of the aerial advantage (CO2), brighter light, and their reputation as "ammonia sinks" because they can assimilate so much ammonia/ammonium. Nitrate is ignored by most aquatic plants, except when ammonium is insufficient. Plants must coverty the nitrate back into ammonium and this takes considerable energy so it is a last resort. There are scientific studies suggesting plants would prefer nitrite over nitrate if ammonium is deficient.

The nitrate of 50 ppm in the source water is a real danger here, and it must be removed fro the water before it enters the aquarium. Fish are weakened by nitrate, the degree depends upon the level, duration of exposure, and species.

 

[ChefAlex]

Byron,

I’m not totally sure if this is what you’re asking, but are you unsure that zero to very low levels of phosphate encourage cyano? The answer is yes.

The distinction between algae and cyano/dinos is very important because algae growth will be limited by zero/very low phosphates levels but bacteria can proliferate in those conditions. The imbalance being too little of something in many cases. In ULNS reef systems that are now being perfected, algae is a thing of the past but dinos (and to a less degree cyano) are public enemy number one. The food entering the system itself simply isn’t enough phosphate, it needs to be dosed regularly. Those using phosphate removers are having the hardest battles.

While I can’t be sure that is the case here, it may be playing out to a smaller degree in a mix of catalysts for the OP’s cyano woes.

 

[Byron]

Byron,

I’m not totally sure if this is what you’re asking, but are you unsure that zero to very low levels of phosphate encourage cyano? The answer is yes.

The distinction between algae and cyano/dinos is very important because algae growth will be limited by zero/very low phosphates levels but bacteria can proliferate in those conditions. The imbalance being too little of something in many cases. In ULNS reef systems that are now being perfected, algae is a thing of the past but dinos (and to a less degree cyano) are public enemy number one. The food entering the system itself simply isn’t enough phosphate, it needs to be dosed regularly. Those using phosphate removers are having the hardest battles.

While I can’t be sure that is the case here, it may be playing out to a smaller degree in a mix of catalysts for the OP’s cyano woes.

The only phosphate in my tanks is from fish foods. If low phosphate encourages cyano, my tanks should be smothered.