Ro Water - Safe From Human Consumption?

[Musho3210]

i dont really see why not, unless you are losing the minerals in your kidneys (kidneys are releasing more minerals from the bloodstrem into the urine), but i dont see how RO water that has gone through parts of your digestive system still be pure enough to alter kidneys "productions", and if it does do that, then wouldnt they cause kidney problems? If you want to get technical, the moment it touches your tounge it loses its "pureness".

Well, Musho, you don't have to understand why to understand that it does happen, as shown by the research I cited above. The problem is that demineralized water's concentration of minerals is so low, that nature tends to remineralize that water. Normally, in nature, this comes form the minerals in the ground, but if the demineralized water is in your body then it will remineralize from the sources in your body. The concentration of all your bodily fluids goes down by adding this demineralized water, so to bring the concentration back up, the body gives up minerals to do so. But, again, you don't have to understand it to know that it is happening. Case in point, we know what gravity does, incredibly accurately, but we don't know how gravity does what it does.

I mean, most of the tds comes from the pipe lines and stuff, and millions years ago humans didnt really use wide spread plumbing, unless since the start of widespread plumbing in the last few centuries in conjunction with a rapid evolution (which is a touchy subject to bring up) caused our bodys to require the tds stuff, i dont see how water with a low tds can harm your body against water with hight tds.

Here in the scientific section, you're really going to have to provide proof of these statements. I don't understand how our bodies could only recently need dissolved solids in our water. I mean, the water that has been on the ground takes in these minerals whenever it is exposed to it. Also, what was the primary source of calcium for us? It is only exceptionally recently that we've milked cows, a large source of calcium comes from the dissolved calcium in the water. Please cite some proof of your statements here.t

If you want my full opinion on this matter, i think its a good thing we are damaging are bodies a little, humans have been getting weaker and weaker with all these medicines working as our immune system, what we need are some good ol' self curable diseases/problems within our bodies, otherwise i wouldnt be surprised if we all die from a disease outbreak sometime in the next few centuries (depending if evolution is true or not)

A further opinion/belief is that i am a firm believer (bad sentence structure, but since when have mine been good) in placebo/physcological effect or whatever you call it, if somehow, you dont believe it will harm you (like 100% believe it wont, not have slight second thoughts) then it wont harm you. But this is pure belief/philosophic or again whatever you call it and these beliefs surely wont help me win an argument with someone else. Luckily i am very stubborn, and i dont believe any of this crap, so hopefully, if the whole placebo/phsycological stuff work, i shouldnt get effected i dont think? Hey, ignorance is bliss.

As a final note (hopefully since i cant stop editing) unless i get some groudbreaking studies without holes in them or questionable answers, i will probably stick to what i believe since i just dont get the picture, how does this whole thing work....

Well, at least these are acknowledged opinions. Opinions not grounded in much science (unless you want to cite some?), but you can hold whatever opinions you choose to. What exactly are you referring to in that last sentence? Studies about RO water or studied to confirm/deny the opinions of the last 3 paragraphs?

May i ask where do the minerals come from if your local water is supplied from a desalination plant besides pipelines etc, i mean, they distill the water, making it pure, yet it still comes out with a decent tds level. Common sense says its the pipelines. If you get your water from rain water (which is pure most of the time) you still end up with a decent tds level.

If you are drinking well water or water that comes from a natural body of water, then it is understandable that the tds might not be from the tap. So, depending on the situation, it could be either. Which means i was mostly wrong before because not many people get there water through desalination plants, most get it from either bore water or natural bodies of water. I apologize.

Not exactly 100% reliable: http/www.tdsmeter.com/abouttds.html#where

Next, unfortunately, i do need to understand what is going on. I understand that we are getting pulled to the center of the earth, throwing up a pencil and watching it fall is proof to me. But i dont understand how RO water "demineralize" humans? I doubt our bodies give up things that easily.

And the last paragraph was about studies about RO water. Give me something that is easily believed, that covers everything....

I still dont understand, and i dont listen to something unless i understand it....

Care to elaborate how it all works?

 

[Bignose]

Musho, I can retype it again, but I explained how RO water takes minerals out up above. Also, the WHO document talks about it as well. Is there a specific part you don't understand? Feel free to ask, I'll do my best to explain if I can.

Here it is in a nutshell (again), tell me where you would like further information.

1) The overriding principle is that nature tends to toward equilibrium. This is from the example I gave above. Put a drop of food coloring so it sits on the top of a glass of water. Wait some time, and the entire glass will be all one color. The concentration of food coloring goes from high to low, until everything evens out.

2) The RO water coming into your body is just like the glass of water and the minerals in the body are just like the food coloring. The RO water is low concentration, the body's reserves are high concentration. The minerals move from the high concentration to the low concentration until everything is evened out.

Sure, it isn't quite as simple as the food coloring drop, but the idea is the same. And, the WHO document above shows that when the experiment is done, the body excreted more calcium, magnesium, chloride, potassium, and sodium ions. The experiment as reported on in the WHO document shows that the demineralized water causes more minerals to be excreted out of the body than regular mineralized water.

If you have questions, I'll do my best to explain it, but that's the big picture of the story. I don't know all the inner workings of the body, though I'll do my best to research them if the questions come up, and explain them if I can.

 

[Musho3210]

ok, i got those parts, but i dont understand where the RO water gets those minerals? Anyway, wouldnt the kidney just be selectively permeable, sure the whole food coloring thing etc is true, but what happens when it has to go through a filter (aka your kidneys). If your body has too much of something, the kidneys choose what to get rid off, so you wont have too much of it in your body, if your body is low in something, it wont take it out of your body.

The large intestine absorbs moisture, so it pretty much absorbs water. But the water has to first go through your esophagus where it gets mixed up with enzymes and saliva and stuff, which makes the water less pure and therefor less absorbant, then it goes to your stomach, where acids and other previously eaten materials are getting digested and mixed up through the stomachs churning, then it goes to the small intestine, which doesnt really mix it up with anything else, until finally it hits the large intestine where the water is then absorbed, it gets sucked out of your feces into your bloodstream, to be later used to flush out excess materials and stuff out of your body. Not until it gets absorbed does it come into contact with the majority of the nutrients and minerals that your body uses in the blood stream. Then from there, the blood gets to the kidneys, the kidneys find stuff that the body doesnt need any more, mixes it with water, and flushes it out of your system as urine.

Now, what i dont get, is how does the water stay pure when it reaches your large intestine, and how does the water make the kidneys not work properly by letting calcium magnesium, chloride, potassium, and sodium ions get passed? That is what i dont get

 

[Bignose]

Well, firstly, you have to remember that most of the streets in the body are not just one-way. Wherever the body can take in minerals, minerals can also leave. Diffusion, the movement of the minerals from high concentrations to low, is the primary mechanism by which things get around. Secondly, diffusion is almost completely independent of the other things in the water. (It is not completely, but the other stuff in the fluid usually doesn't have a large effect.) So, unless the esphagus and saliva are going to contain enough minerals to rebalance the water, then again, the diffusion street goes both ways. Also... where do you think that the saliva gets its minerals from? This is why I completely agree that a glass or two isn't going to hurt anyone. But, if you are continuously putting in mineral-free water, each chain along the way gets affected. The blood serum level of minerals is lowered.

From the WHO document:

"It has been adequately demonstrated that consuming water of low mineral
content has a negative effect on homeostasis mechanisms, compromising the
mineral and water metabolism in the body. An increase in urine output (i.e.,
increased diuresis) is associated with an increase in excretion of major intra- and
extracellular ions from the body fluids, their negative balance, and changes in
body water levels and functional activity of some body water management dependent
hormones."

and

"Low-mineral water
acts on osmoreceptors of the gastrointestinal tract, causing an increased flow of
sodium ions into the intestinal lumen and slight reduction in osmotic pressure in
the portal venous system with subsequent enhanced release of sodium into the
blood as an adaptation response. This osmotic change in the blood plasma
results in the redistribution of body water; that is, there is an increase in the total
extracellular fluid volume and the transfer of water from erythrocytes and
interstitial fluid into the plasma and between intracellular and interstitial fluids.
In response to the changed plasma volume, baroreceptors and volume receptors
in the bloodstream are activated, inducing a decrease in aldosterone release and
thus an increase in sodium elimination. Reactivity of the volume receptors in
the vessels may result in a decrease in ADH release and an enhanced diuresis."

and

"Water resorption by
the intestinal epithelium is also enabled by sodium transport. If distilled water is
ingested, the intestine has to add electrolytes to this water first, taking them
from the body reserves. Since the body never eliminates fluid in form of "pure"
water but always together with salts, adequate intake of electrolytes must be
ensured. Ingestion of distilled water leads to the dilution of the electrolytes
dissolved in the body water. Inadequate body water redistribution between
compartments may compromise the function of vital organs. Symptoms at the
very beginning of this condition include tiredness, weakness and headache;
more severe symptoms are muscular cramps and impaired heart rate."

and

"Additional evidence comes from animal experiments and clinical
observations in several countries. Animals given zinc or magnesium dosed in
their drinking water had a significantly higher concentration of these elements in
the serum than animals given the same elements in much higher amounts with
food and provided with low-mineral water to drink. Based on the results of
experiments and clinical observations of mineral deficiency in patients whose
intestinal absorption did not need to be taken into account and who received
balanced intravenous nutrition diluted with distilled water, Robbins and Sly
(1981) presumed that intake of low-mineral water was responsible for an
increased elimination of minerals from the body."

The Robbins and Shy reference is "Robbins, D.J. and Sly, M.R. (1981) Serum zinc and demineralized water. Am. J. Clin.
Nutr. 34, 962-963." and probably has more details. I don't know all the details myself.

The kidneys are good at choosing what gets released, but they aren't perfect. Nothing is perfect. And, if the body is releasing some thing, it still has to obey the rules. I.e. if the body wants to get rid of chloride, it still has to obey the charge rules -- so for every negative ion that gets released there has to be a positive one, too. So, if a Cl- is to be excreted it has to release a Na+ or Ca+2 or something with it... it can't be helped.

Other than that, I don't know the details. It looks like the references in the WHO document there goes into the details. The WHO document has some of the details, but it does concentrate more on the results, which show that drinking demineralized water does cause extra minerals to be excreted. If you want to know the details of the experiment, go look them up for yourself. Any good university library should be able to get those papers for you.

I have to say that I don't know because biology isn't my area of expertise. I don't know all the working and intricate details of each chain reaction. I don't know where the body stores its reserves of minerals. I know the physics and the diffusion processes that show that the demineralized water will pick up minerals wherever it can. And if it goes into your body, it will take minerals from the body. That is the direction of equilibrium, and all nature tends toward equilibrium, in the long run.

 

[Musho3210]

yes i understand equilibrium, but that happens more in cells (through either passive or active transport, i forget which). The kidneys are there to not let passive or active transport happen.

The body works at a cellular/molecular level, meaning, enzymes break down or put together molecules, acting as a catalyst. Enzymes only work on molecules though, it doesnt take a chunk of steak and a chunk of vegetables and make it useful to the body, it takes maybe protein and breaks it down into a more simple way for the body to use, or the opposite, taking a protein and building it for the body to use.

Back to purity, like you said, pure water is "absorbent" and i understand that. What i dont understand is how it maintains its low mineralness by the time it reaches the intestinal tract, like you said causes some sodium ion problem stuff or whatever. Next, if it does somehow make you excrete extra through your kidneys, it would have to cause problems, you said it has stuff to do with polarity and ions etc. But if the water is full of minerals, that doesnt change the fact that your body works at a molecular level. The kidneys can and should tell apart H2O molecules from say C6H12O6. How will the minerals that were absorbed from your body, somehow bypass the kidneys, to be lost through your urine.

Ok, my next confusion is at the animal. It makes perfect sense that water with higher zinc level, gives animal more zinc. But where was this zinc tested? In the urine? If there is a high concentration of zinc in the urine then the animal doesnt need that zinc anymore. If it was tested in the blood (which i think that source was trying to say with the word serum) that still doesnt mean anything, sure, your blood has a lot of zinc in it, but if it has too much, the kidneys will find it, and just flush the excess zinc out. So its just like your overdosing in zinc (which is perfectly fine since this overdose should be very very very little). Just because you have a higher amount of it in your serum compared to the same animal with a lower amount in the serum, doesnt mean that the body is using all of it.

Open up any decent freshman/sophomore biology book for a source. Mine is called BSCS Biology: A molecular Approach

 

[steelhealr]

POI: The majority of the minerals that we receive in our body is from our diet and NOT from our water. SH

 

[Bignose]

Musho, I have said that I don't know the whys. But, the results speak for themselves. I don't know why the kidneys let the extra minerals go. I don't know at the molecular level where the storage and interaction and all that occurs.

But, again, the results of the study show that extra minerals are excreted. Unless you can show why that study was flawed in some way, the results speak for themselves. Drink demineralized water and extra minerals are excreted. Again, the details you seek might be in the sources cited by the WHO document, or in the sources cited by the sources of the WHO documents.

Just because you don't know and I don't know the whys, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Unless there is evidence out there that it doesn't happen, all the evidence presented here so far shows that it does happen. Until other evidence is presented that shows it doesn't happen, we must go with the evidence that it does. You can't just disbelieve in something because you don't understand it, when the evidence is right there that it does.

SH, sure, the food is the major source, but that doesn't reduce the importance of the minerals in the water. Again, from the WHO document:

Although drinking water is not the major source of our calcium and
magnesium intake, the health significance of supplemental intake of these
elements from drinking water may outweigh its nutritional contribution
expressed as the proportion of the total daily intake of these elements. Even in
industrialized countries, diets not deficient in terms of the quantity of calcium
and magnesium, may not be able to fully compensate for the absence of calcium
and, in particular, magnesium, in drinking water.

and

Recent studies also suggest
that the intake of soft water, i.e. water low in calcium, may be associated with
higher risk of fracture in children (Verd Vallespir et al. 1992), certain
neurodegenerative diseases (Jacqmin et al. 1994), pre-term birth and low weight
at birth (Yang et al. 2002) and some types of cancer (Yang et al. 1997; Yang et
al. 1998). In addition to an increased risk of sudden death (Eisenberg 1992;
Bernardi et al. 1995; Garzon and Eisenberg 1998), the intake of water low in
magnesium seems to be associated with a higher risk of motor neuronal disease
(Iwami et al. 1994), pregnancy disorders (so-called preeclampsia) (Melles &
Kiss 1992), and some types of cancer (Yang et al. 1999a; Yang et al. 1999b;
Yang et al. 1999c; Yang et al. 2000).

and

The importance of water calcium was also confirmed in a one-year study of
rats on a fully adequate diet in terms of nutrients and salts and given desalinated
water with added dissolved solids of 400 mg/l and either 5 mg/l, 25 mg/l, or 50
mg/l of calcium (WHO 1980; Rakhmanin et al. 1976). The animals given water
dosed with 5 mg/l of calcium exhibited a reduction in thyroidal and other
associated functions compared to the animals given the two higher doses of
calcium.
While the effects of most chemicals commonly found in drinking water
manifest themselves after long exposure, the effects of calcium and, in
particular, those of magnesium on the cardiovascular system are believed to
reflect recent exposures. Only a few months exposure may be sufficient
consumption time effects from water that is low in magnesium and/or calcium.
(Rubenowitz et al. 2000). Illustrative of such short-term exposures are cases in
the Czech and Slovak populations who began using reverse osmosis-based
systems for final treatment of drinking water at their home taps in 2000-2002.
Within several weeks or months various health complaints suggestive of acute
magnesium (and possibly calcium) deficiency were reported (NIPH 2003).
Among these complaints were cardiovascular disorders, tiredness, weakness or
muscular cramps. These are essentially the same symptoms listed in the warning
of the German Society for Nutrition

So, there is evidence the drinking water low in calcium and magnesium can lead to dire results -- and especially as noted in that last paragraph, the results need not take years and years to show up.

There is also a big issue in cooking your food in demineralized water because the water these will take the nutrients out of the food. Once again this is covered in the WHO document.

 

[Musho3210]

if the results are full of holes (not saying how) i think i have every right not to listen to it.

Its all a bunch of bull to me

 

[Bignose]

Musho, if you haven't read the study, how can you know how full of holes it is? Why would the WHO document essentially lie about the results? Why can't you trust the summary of the results?

It is a WHO study (the 1980 reference) that had the volunteers drink demineralized water. The authors of the piece are respected scientists. Why would the lie about the results?

Unless you think they lied, what basis do you have to disbelieve the results?

 

[andywg]

if the results are full of holes (not saying how) i think i have every right not to listen to it.

Its all a bunch of bull to me

This is the science forum, and posts like that above have no place here.

Bignose has cited a creditable scientific review of research which indicates the effects of drinking low mineral water. You have provided absolutely nothing of a scientific nature to counter those findings except that no one has yet managed to force feed you an explanation of exactly why it happens at a cellular level for all elements involved.

One does not need to understand why something happens to observe that it does happen.

Consider gravity. Until Einstein put forward his thoughts on large objects bending space-time we had very little idea about quite how and why gravity was exerted. This did not mean that we floated away, and it did not diminish the value of scientific experiments on the effect of gravity.

The WHO has noted that drinking low mineral water leads to a higher passing of elements from the body. Unless you can find a scientific reason why the results are incorrect you cannot call it a "bunch of bull". Without any scientific backing to criticise the findings (other than your own inability to comprehend exactly what is happening) you have no grounds on which to demean the paper.

Time for you to find some evidence to the contrary or, for want of a more eloquent phrase, put up or shut up. This is the Science forum where peer reviewed evidence is the basis for debating an idea, not someone's inability to grips a concept that goes against their current thinking.

 

[Bignose]

if the results are full of holes (not saying how) i think i have every right not to listen to it.

Its all a bunch of bull to me

This is the science forum, and posts like that above have no place here.

Bignose has cited a creditable scientific review of research which indicates the effects of drinking low mineral water. You have provided absolutely nothing of a scientific nature to counter those findings except that no one has yet managed to force feed you an explanation of exactly why it happens at a cellular level for all elements involved.

One does not need to understand why something happens to observe that it does happen.

Consider gravity. Until Einstein put forward his thoughts on large objects bending space-time we had very little idea about quite how and why gravity was exerted. This did not mean that we floated away, and it did not diminish the value of scientific experiments on the effect of gravity.

The WHO has noted that drinking low mineral water leads to a higher passing of elements from the body. Unless you can find a scientific reason why the results are incorrect you cannot call it a "bunch of bull". Without any scientific backing to criticise the findings (other than your own inability to comprehend exactly what is happening) you have no grounds on which to demean the paper.

Time for you to find some evidence to the contrary or, for want of a more eloquent phrase, put up or shut up. This is the Science forum where peer reviewed evidence is the basis for debating an idea, not someone's inability to grips a concept that goes against their current thinking.

Thank you Andy. I was trying to say something exactly like that. I couldn't agree more.

and p.s. in all exactness, we still don't know how gravity works. We know how the other three fundamental forces work, by the exchange of the mediator particles. Specifically, the exchange of photons is the basis of the electromagnetic force, the exchange of of gluons is the basis of the strong force, the exchange of W and Z bosons are the basis of the weak force. Since the other three exchange particles to work, it has been hypothesized that gravity probably works the same way, but exchangning particles that have already been named gravitons. But, there has never been confirmed the detection of a graviton to date. But, the point remains that we have an excellent understanding of what gravity is and how it affects objects in the universe. This is how we can launch probes to take pictures of Saturn and land on Mars and take samples off of asteroids and how GPS satellites work, etc. etc. We know the consequences of gravity and how to make very, very accurate predictions where gravity is involved, even if we don't know all the intricate details of how gravity does what it does.

 

[Musho3210]

From the beginning of humans, people knew that when they jump, they fall back to the ground. Not until recently was gravity mentioned.

Scientists wont lie (shouldnt, anyway i dont think they were lying, you must have mis-interpreted). I find the data full of holes, as if they didnt include something, that doesnt mean that they lied.

oh i get what it is all saying, but it is not stating enough. Knowing how the body works, it doesnt seem theoretical. And if by now no one can tell me how it is possible, then your right. I should shut my hole.

Oh and might i add, i specifically said i wasnt trying to prove anything, i was trying to clear everything up, even though it stayed foggy, so i tried to end it with.

I said it was a bunch of bull, not because i thought the science part was a bunch of bull, but how Ro water can be damaging. Believe me, i believe the scientists study, i believe the data, but not enough of it was included for me to even.... well, use it i guess.

And as of now, i shut my hole, and leave you two to contine the debate, with my mind still confused, and with me still drinking demineralized water.

From now on, i should just listen, and know not how, if someone says im gay, im gay, i shouldnt need to know how. Thank you for showing me life the way it should.

 

[andywg]

oh i get what it is all saying, but it is not stating enough. Knowing how the body works, it doesnt seem theoretical. And if by now no one can tell me how it is possible, then your right. I should shut my hole.

Or, alternatively, go and research more into how the body works. If there is one thing that you notice from studying science at ever higher levels, it is that many processes are simplified so that people at each level can understand the general concepts and the effects at that level. Just how much do you think you really know about how the body works? I know that I have a tiny understanding compared to SH, let alone the general scientific community.

 

[Bignose]

Musho, you can stick to whatever opinions you want to keep. But, especially in this scientifically based section, opinions don't have a place here. It may be your opinion that the data presented is insufficient, or "full of holes" but as I said and as you seem to acknowledge, the data reported by the WHO is perfectly valid, unless you can provide a scientific reason for it to be invalid. Such as the data was gathered incorrectly, or the methodology was incorrect or something like that. You can opine that the data is wrong, but unless you can provide evidence that it is wrong, it doesn't belong in this section.

I (and I hope I speak for the others, too) don't want you to stop participating here. It is just that if you want to express your dissatisfaction with a result, you need to provide some evidence or some reasons behind it.

I can't emphasize enough, that just because I or anyone else participating on the forum can't tell you how it happens, doesn't change the fact that it is so. Take up Andy's suggestion and go research this yourself. And then, please report back to the forum, because I'd like to know, too. Someone probably does know, the WHO documents summarizes some of the mechanisms so the details are probably out there. Please, go read them to your satisfaction until you now longer think that they are "bull."

 

[raptorrex]

POI: The majority of the minerals that we receive in our body is from our diet and NOT from our water. SH

yes and as the Surgeon Generals report states a vast percentage of US citizens, are not getting enough calcium, from that diet! drinking water that will make you excrete even more, of the stuff, seems to be the wrong thing to do. it is even more important if you live in warmer climates.

Can i clear something up here?
All manufacturers of drinking water RO units, insist that the water supply must be "safe" before the RO unit can be used so aside from removing nitrates, as this is the only thing a RO unit does that other filtration systems cant. and after factoring in the ludicrous amount of water wasted by these units, just what is the point of having one?