Ro Units

[Spank]

Hi there,

I've recently been looking into investgin into an RO unit as I want to start keeping discus fish.

I was particularly interested in the "3 Stage 50 Gallon Per Day RO System
[OS-2PRO50]" that's advertised on Osmotics Uk

The unit will need to produce enough water for 15% water changes weekly (probably more often), does this mean I'd have to leave the unit on overnight to gain enough water?
Also, I've heard conflicting issues over the maintenance of and RO unit. I have heard that with a flush valve, the unit can be turned off and flushed before use, is this true? or is it recommended to leave the unit running 24hrs a day?. Also how often will the cartridges need replacing? A shop owner today has told me his aquamedic unit has run for 2+ years without a filter change and the water is still pure.

and finally (sorry for so many Q's) how ieasy is it to install and RO unit and to run it? can I just attach it to my household taps? and do I have to wati 24 hrs and drain the RO water into a large bucket? what happens to the waste?

Thanks for all your help

Hank

 

[Gankutsuou]

I'm sure you'll get more replies in "hardware and do it yourself"

 

[annka5]

I can't answer all the questions, but:
a) cartridge replacement depends in large part on the quality of the water going in. If it is very hard with nitrate and phosphate the cartridge/membrane needs changed more often.
B) The waste water is a total waste, basically, unless you are prepared to use it as household grey water. They aren't the most environmentally freindly of devices, when you think of the energy /chemicals used in purifying mains water to start off with. Nor the cheapest if you're on a water meter. The waste was what put me off getting an RO unit.
c) More important to match the water chemistry to the breeder /dealers, and to ensure it is stable, than acheive a certain measure. I'd be inclined to measure the nitrate and phosphate of your tap water for a while as you may find the quality is fine for discus without RO.
Also, I may've misread, but 15% per week doesn't sound enough for discus. I do apprx 20% twice a week, and loads of people will tell you that isn't enough. I reckon it's OK for mine as they aren't juvenilles, but if you're intending to start with small, young discus, you would definitely need to do more than 15% a week (assuming you ahve relatively normal stocking levels).

 

[Spank]

I can't answer all the questions, but:
a) cartridge replacement depends in large part on the quality of the water going in. If it is very hard with nitrate and phosphate the cartridge/membrane needs changed more often.
B) The waste water is a total waste, basically, unless you are prepared to use it as household grey water. They aren't the most environmentally freindly of devices, when you think of the energy /chemicals used in purifying mains water to start off with. Nor the cheapest if you're on a water meter. The waste was what put me off getting an RO unit.
c) More important to match the water chemistry to the breeder /dealers, and to ensure it is stable, than acheive a certain measure. I'd be inclined to measure the nitrate and phosphate of your tap water for a while as you may find the quality is fine for discus without RO.
Also, I may've misread, but 15% per week doesn't sound enough for discus. I do apprx 20% twice a week, and loads of people will tell you that isn't enough. I reckon it's OK for mine as they aren't juvenilles, but if you're intending to start with small, young discus, you would definitely need to do more than 15% a week (assuming you ahve relatively normal stocking levels).

Thanks for the help annka5,
Yeah I think you're right, the water changes will have to be more than 15%, I do have a large (140 US gallon) tank though so conditions stay pretty constant. I talked to a guy at my local maidenhead aquatics who has a marine tank and runs an aquamedic RO unit. Both of us live in the same area with London water that's very hard and he says he hasn't changed his filter in the 2yrs he's had the unit.
He also says the waste water is perfect for plants as it is very rich in various ions.

any other thoughts would be most welcome

THanks again
Hank

 

[ItsMyThing]

If you're going to use an RO, remember that it takes everything out of the water. You'll need to get some Kent RO-right to add to the water to replace the trace elements that the fish need.

 

[PaPeRo]

If you're going to use an RO, remember that it takes everything out of the water. You'll need to get some Kent RO-right to add to the water to replace the trace elements that the fish need.

That's not true, if it were RO water wouldn't taste sweet, instead it would taste like distilled water. Trace elements are only important for saltwater fish.

 

[andywg]

If you're going to use an RO, remember that it takes everything out of the water. You'll need to get some Kent RO-right to add to the water to replace the trace elements that the fish need.

That's not true, if it were RO water wouldn't taste sweet, instead it would taste like distilled water. Trace elements are only important for saltwater fish.

Trace elements are important to both freshwater and marine fish.

You don't need to add any extra trace elements to RO water for marine as they are contained in the marine salt mix. TO quote Bignose on an older thread when describing RO water:

Reverse Osmosis water:

The good: It is essentially a blank palette in that the overwhelming majority of minerals are taken out of the water. In this way, you have to put a salt mixture back into the water, because all living things need minerals and they get a large amount of them from their water. In fact, if you don't put minerals back in, the water will leech minerals back out of the fish (or you if you drink it.) But, you get to pick what minerals to put back in, so you can tailor your water to match almost any body of water in the world. You can re-create the waters of the African Rift Lakes, the ocean (which marine keepers use RO water for), the acidic rivers of the Amazon, etc.

By definition, pure water has a pH of 7.0, which is why many people with hard alkaline water use it to keep Amazon Basin species, like discus.

The bad: The good units are expensive. They use membranes that have to be replaced, which also are not cheap. The salt mixtures you have to put back in aren't free either.

The ratio of RO water produced to water discarded can be pretty bad, somewhere around 1 gallon of RO yielded for every 3-8 gallon of tap water put in, so unless you can use that extra water, your water bill will be higher from the waste.

Because the water is so pure, it will have no buffering capability. So, the salt mixtures you add have to include some buffering capability otherwise the end products of the cycle will cause a pH crash. You can't store RO water in just anything, again because it is so pure almost any chemical will try to dissolve iself in it, including the materials of the container you try to store it in.

 

[PaPeRo]

Trace elements are important to both freshwater and marine fish.

You don't need to add any extra trace elements to RO water for marine as they are contained in the marine salt mix.

Why are you telling me this? I've owned reefs tanks in the past so I know almost everything there is to know about saltwater tanks, RO, salt, etc.

All I said was that trace elements are more important for saltwater fish which is true. Trace elements are not as important for freshwater otherwise you'd see various companies selling trace elements for freshwater tanks. Have you seen the trace elements breakdown for freshwater ponds and streams? Have you seen the trace elements breakdown for tap water?

 

[andywg]

Why are you telling me this? I've owned reefs tanks in the past so I know almost everything there is to know about saltwater tanks, RO, salt, etc.

All I said was that trace elements are more important for saltwater fish which is true. Trace elements are not as important for freshwater otherwise you'd see various companies selling trace elements for freshwater tanks. Have you seen the trace elements breakdown for freshwater ponds and streams? Have you seen the trace elements breakdown for tap water?

Even Bob Fenner and Scott W. Michael would never make such a bold statement as that which I have highlighted above. There is so much that everyone can learn about keeping saltwater it is unreal. Anyone who claims to know almost all there is to know is just ignorant of how much more there is to learn.

The trace elements are just as important to both types of fish. Without them the fishes' health will suffer and ultimately the fish will die.

And the difference between RO and Distilled water is that RO is usually 95-99.5% piure water, whereas Distilled water will be 99.9-100% depending on the processes and condition of the input water.

 

[PaPeRo]

The point is you're telling me stuff I already know. Tell me something I don't know. Why not answer the question I brought up about tap water and stream water? Do you know the answer to the question?

BTW I've been using RO water for my freshwater tanks without trace supplements and my fish are doing fine.

The trace elements are just as important to both types of fish. Without them the fishes' health will suffer and ultimately the fish will die.

Where is your proof? BTW everything dies ultimately.

And the difference between RO and Distilled water is that RO is usually 95-99.5% piure water, whereas Distilled water will be 99.9-100% depending on the processes and condition of the input water.

Why are you telling me this?

 

[Halfsleeve]

I have a 50 gallons per day unit, and I change 25ltrs a week my tank is 190 ltrs, my discus seem happy with that sort of routine constant water parameters are most important for discus and a steady ph, I use seachem equalibrium to replace the lost minerals.
I should probably be changing more but for now it seems fine, had them a year and they have grown about 2".

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Hi there,

I've recently been looking into investgin into an RO unit as I want to start keeping discus fish.

I was particularly interested in the "3 Stage 50 Gallon Per Day RO System
[OS-2PRO50]" that's advertised on Osmotics Uk

The unit will need to produce enough water for 15% water changes weekly (probably more often), does this mean I'd have to leave the unit on overnight to gain enough water?
Also, I've heard conflicting issues over the maintenance of and RO unit. I have heard that with a flush valve, the unit can be turned off and flushed before use, is this true? or is it recommended to leave the unit running 24hrs a day?. Also how often will the cartridges need replacing? A shop owner today has told me his aquamedic unit has run for 2+ years without a filter change and the water is still pure.

and finally (sorry for so many Q's) how ieasy is it to install and RO unit and to run it? can I just attach it to my household taps? and do I have to wati 24 hrs and drain the RO water into a large bucket? what happens to the waste?

Thanks for all your help

Hank

we have the same unit from osmotics and are very pleased with it

you won't need to leave it overnight unless your doing very large water changes, we can do a 30% change on our 30g marine tank in a few hrs, and that's with all the extra fannying you have for SW changes.

this machine is very very easy to flush, just a little switch you flick.

your recommended to run the machine 2mins every day as if you leave it with water in it can go stale and damage the cartridges lifespan.

if you get a tds meter you can monitor the quality of the RO you are producing and know when it will need replacing. how long it lasts will depend on how much you use it and how well it is maintained.

if you have a 'garden' type tap you can get an attachment to put it on really easily. we have one under the sink (don't ask) so we just hook it up when we need it then put it back in the cupboard after, takes all of about 5 seconds to hook up and get going.

the waste can be very well used on your garden or household plants if you like. there's a waste tube that comes off the machine, you can eitehr run it straight down the sink and away (not v environmentally responsible though) or collect it and use it

think that's an answer for everything, hope that helps!

 

[andywg]

The point is you're telling me stuff I already know. Tell me something I don't know. Why not answer the question I brought up about tap water and stream water? Do you know the answer to the question?

BTW I've been using RO water for my freshwater tanks without trace supplements and my fish are doing fine.

The trace elements are just as important to both types of fish. Without them the fishes' health will suffer and ultimately the fish will die.

Where is your proof? BTW everything dies ultimately.

There was a great post on it by Bignose a little while ago though my search skills are letting me down. The crux of it was that fish have spent generations adapting to the water they live in including how to osmo-regulate with certain salts, minerals and elements in the water. Taking all of them out via RO (or distilled) water will place a strain on the osmo-reultaion of the fish.

I can't answer the question about the trace elements found in tap/stream water as it will be different depending on where the tap or stream is located. How do you know your fish are doing fine. I admit you probably have some special sense, as you know almost everything there is to know on all aspects of reef keeping, but enlighten me how you are so sure that the osmo-regulatory functions of your fish are in perfect working order.

And the difference between RO and Distilled water is that RO is usually 95-99.5% piure water, whereas Distilled water will be 99.9-100% depending on the processes and condition of the input water.

Why are you telling me this?

Because of your comment on how the two are completely different earlier when the two can in fact be identical:

If you're going to use an RO, remember that it takes everything out of the water. You'll need to get some Kent RO-right to add to the water to replace the trace elements that the fish need.

That's not true, if it were RO water wouldn't taste sweet, instead it would taste like distilled water. Trace elements are only important for saltwater fish.

 

[PaPeRo]

The crux of it was that fish have spent generations adapting to the water they live in including how to osmo-regulate with certain salts, minerals and elements in the water. Taking all of them out via RO (or distilled) water will place a strain on the osmo-reultaion of the fish.

So the water companies add trace elements to tap water to closely simulate the waters of the Amazon?

I can't answer the question about the trace elements found in tap/stream water as it will be different depending on where the tap or stream is located.

So that makes your whole argument about trace elements for freshwater moot since you don't know the makeup of tap water which is used by MILLIONS of fish keepers all over the world without any problems.

How do you know your fish are doing fine. I admit you probably have some special sense, as you know almost everything there is to know on all aspects of reef keeping, but enlighten me how you are so sure that the osmo-regulatory functions of your fish are in perfect working order.

How do you know my fish are unhealthy? You must have some special scientific knowledge that says my fish are doing poorly since I don't use trace supplements.

Because of your comment on how the two are completely different earlier when the two can in fact be identical

Somebody said RO takes out EVERYTHING which isn't true. Why did you feel the need to make a strawman claim?

 

[andywg]

So the water companies add trace elements to tap water to closely simulate the waters of the Amazon?

Nope. trace elements and minerals are added by the water's path through the ground (and occasionally throught he air as clouds) into the treatment plants. Only additives I really know of are Chlorine/Chloramine for inhibiting bacterial growth in the pipes and flouride to protect our teeth.

So that makes your whole argument about trace elements for freshwater moot since you don't know the makeup of tap water which is used by MILLIONS of fish keepers all over the world without any problems.

Actually, I am advocating the use of tap water over RO water for most, if not all, FW set ups. It is you who is using the different water by stating you use RO water. I am saying the presence of minerals and trace elements is beneficial to fish and removing them all can have a detrimental effect on the fish. Of the "MILLIONS" of fishkeepers the vast majority use normal tap water. Of those that use RO, most will cut it with tap water or add something like Kent's "RO-right" to restore the minerals and trace elements.

How do you know my fish are unhealthy? You must have some special scientific knowledge that says my fish are doing poorly since I don't use trace supplements.

I have not said they are healthy, I am asking how you can be so sure there is nothing wrong with their internal osmo-regulation as you so confidently stated a couple of posts ago.