Ro, Hma

[Rorie]

Can somebody please explain what this is....back to basics! Why do we need it, what does it do, how does it do it, is it only discus i need it for, are there any downsides to it? Is it something i have inside my tank, outside, or just something i use while filling my tank?

Sorry, i have no clue! I have read bits and bobs bout them, but nothing seems to tell me the basics!

 

[Squidward]

A HMA filter will take out some of the organics, heavy metals and chlorine and choramine out of your water. But it will not affect the hardness or ph as it doesn't take out the dissolved carbonates.

A RO unit will take out everything that a HMA does, as well as filtering out the dissolved carbonates. The end result of this is about 98% pure water.

Which to use. Well that depends on what your tap water is like, and what Discus you intend to keep.

If you intend keeping German/Stendker Discus, and your tap water is more or less reasonable, than a HMA filter may be ok.

If your tap water is very hard, or you want to keep Asian Discus, then RO water may be a better option. Or if you want to breed.
Also, bearing in mind, you can't use pure RO water as it is too unstable, so you have to dilute it with a percentage of tap or HMA water. Or you could use pure RO water with one of the remin products.

 

[Rorie]

A HMA filter will take out some of the organics, heavy metals and chlorine and choramine out of your water. But it will not affect the hardness or ph as it doesn't take out the dissolved carbonates.

A RO unit will take out everything that a HMA does, as well as filtering out the dissolved carbonates. The end result of this is about 98% pure water.

Which to use. Well that depends on what your tap water is like, and what Discus you intend to keep.

If you intend keeping German/Stendker Discus, and your tap water is more or less reasonable, than a HMA filter may be ok.

If your tap water is very hard, or you want to keep Asian Discus, then RO water may be a better option. Or if you want to breed.
Also, bearing in mind, you can't use pure RO water as it is too unstable, so you have to dilute it with a percentage of tap or HMA water. Or you could use pure RO water with one of the remin products.

Thanks!

So, my tap water is 7.6, but my aquariums PH is 6.5. I have been questioning my 50% water changes as i will be pumping PH7.6 into my tank which is stable at 6.5. So am i correct in saying that if i use an RO, that will get rid of that problem?

With the need to mix tap water and RO water, am i right in saying that i can just add the two separately (rather than mixing before adding to the aquarium)?

Currently i use a pump in drain 50% of my water out, then hook it up to a tap and reverse the use of my tubing by filling the aquarium back up. I then add De-chlo. and finally switch everything back on. If i use an RO, am i right in saying i would no longer need to add De-chl.....for the Ro part at least?

Would i hook up the RO to my tap and fill directly from there? The tubing used for these seems to be a lot smaller..... does it take a long time to fill aquariums using this?

 

[Squidward]

A HMA filter will take out some of the organics, heavy metals and chlorine and choramine out of your water. But it will not affect the hardness or ph as it doesn't take out the dissolved carbonates.

A RO unit will take out everything that a HMA does, as well as filtering out the dissolved carbonates. The end result of this is about 98% pure water.

Which to use. Well that depends on what your tap water is like, and what Discus you intend to keep.

If you intend keeping German/Stendker Discus, and your tap water is more or less reasonable, than a HMA filter may be ok.

If your tap water is very hard, or you want to keep Asian Discus, then RO water may be a better option. Or if you want to breed.
Also, bearing in mind, you can't use pure RO water as it is too unstable, so you have to dilute it with a percentage of tap or HMA water. Or you could use pure RO water with one of the remin products.

Thanks!

So, my tap water is 7.6, but my aquariums PH is 6.5. I have been questioning my 50% water changes as i will be pumping PH7.6 into my tank which is stable at 6.5. So am i correct in saying that if i use an RO, that will get rid of that problem?

With the need to mix tap water and RO water, am i right in saying that i can just add the two separately (rather than mixing before adding to the aquarium)?

Currently i use a pump in drain 50% of my water out, then hook it up to a tap and reverse the use of my tubing by filling the aquarium back up. I then add De-chlo. and finally switch everything back on. If i use an RO, am i right in saying i would no longer need to add De-chl.....for the Ro part at least?

Would i hook up the RO to my tap and fill directly from there? The tubing used for these seems to be a lot smaller..... does it take a long time to fill aquariums using this?

No, you plumb the RO filter directly into the mains.
The process is quite intensive, and you only get a small percentage out of what goes into the filter, the rest is expelled as waste.
The pure water is pumped from the RO filter into a water butt/plastic container. You then add either conditioned tap water, or a remin product. It gets aerated for a few days to allow the ph to settle and also heated to the same temp as your tank.
After it's ready you can add it to you tank.

Have a look at that website I suggested in my pm to you.

Edit:
It's interesting that the ph goes down after you put it in your tank. I think in most cases, the ph usually goes up.

 

[Rorie]

Ah ok. I get you now. So most of the water that goes in will just go back out through a drain?

The video i saw had the RO kit attached onto the side of the aquarium, hence i thought it just dribbled straight in.

I assume that i COULD just add the water straight into the tank if the RO expels water at 6.2PH (i think i read that somewhere) rather than distilling it in a bucket? I really do not have room to store all that water!

I will have a look at the website - i did not notice the PM until now

 

[Squidward]

Ah ok. I get you now. So most of the water that goes in will just go back out through a drain?

The video i saw had the RO kit attached onto the side of the aquarium, hence i thought it just dribbled straight in.

I assume that i COULD just add the water straight into the tank if the RO expels water at 6.2PH (i think i read that somewhere) rather than distilling it in a bucket? I really do not have room to store all that water!

Yup, I think for every liter of RO you produce, about 6-7 liters will be waste.

I suppose you could have the RO water going straight to the tank, but I am not sure how it would work.
The RO filter works really slowly. They are usually rated at about 50 gals/day. And that's at optimum water pressure.
So it will take a good while just to get the water you need for a water change.

 

[Rorie]

Had a look at that website....was hoping for some articles on the basics and some more in depth info,.... but didnt get a huge amount out of it. Maybe i am learning and hence the basics are not needed now haha.

Ok, So i understand the RO system now and how it works etc....but i guess the question is, do i need it?! Can i not just add some carbon layers to my filter and that will take out any impurities? Just looking at the other side of the argument now of course.

Oh, i just realised, a lot of aquatic shops SELL RO water....now i understand why! haha. But for a 360L tank, 50% would be 180L....thats a lot of water to find storage for! Hmm

 

[twodoctors]

Had a look at that website....was hoping for some articles on the basics and some more in depth info,.... but didnt get a huge amount out of it. Maybe i am learning and hence the basics are not needed now haha.

Ok, So i understand the RO system now and how it works etc....but i guess the question is, do i need it?! Can i not just add some carbon layers to my filter and that will take out any impurities? Just looking at the other side of the argument now of course.

Oh, i just realised, a lot of aquatic shops SELL RO water....now i understand why! haha. But for a 360L tank, 50% would be 180L....thats a lot of water to find storage for! Hmm

The answer to that would depend on your budget and what fishes you are/want to keep(ing). Having RO water is like having a blank piece of paper. You can alter it so that it suits what your fishes need (changing pH, hardness etc). Some fishes are (supposedly) more sensitive than others, like (apparently) discus and (probably) wild caught (F1) fishes. Most fishes in the LFS are tank bred and have acclimatised to local tap water (although some shop would use 50-100% RO water), and so should relatively closely match your own tap water parameter.

There are at least 2 school of thoughts on this subject. Some believe stable water parameter is all you need to keep tank bred fishes healthy. Others believe you should match the water parameter as closely to the fishes' normal habitat as possible. It really depends on who you ask.

RO water is soft water by definition as there is no dissolved salt in it. So pH can be changed very easily. Discus needs soft water, so most people will go out of their way to achieve this (ie RO unit), probably because they are not cheap to buy in the first place. Neon tetra also need soft acidic water, but because they are so cheap I don't know anyone who installs a RO unit just to keep them. I'm sure I'm being a bit mean but that would be my guess.

There are many ways of changing water parameter, but personally I would match the fish to your tap water, rather than the other way round.

Adrian

 

[raptorrex]

Can somebody please explain what this is....back to basics! Why do we need it, what does it do, how does it do it, is it only discus i need it for, are there any downsides to it? Is it something i have inside my tank, outside, or just something i use while filling my tank?

Sorry, i have no clue! I have read bits and bobs bout them, but nothing seems to tell me the basics!

unless you are only going to use reconstituted RO, in your tanks products).(using only RO and rebuilding its content with propitiatory products) RO will not be successful in lowering ph (reliably). its another common fishkeeping fallacy. fondly held by those with RO addiction and or equipment. water has a way of finding its level, its called buffering. truth is, you dont need it, but it can be used. you just have to decide if you want all the hassle and massive cost, of making every drop of water that goes into your tank.

 

[Squidward]

Can somebody please explain what this is....back to basics! Why do we need it, what does it do, how does it do it, is it only discus i need it for, are there any downsides to it? Is it something i have inside my tank, outside, or just something i use while filling my tank?

Sorry, i have no clue! I have read bits and bobs bout them, but nothing seems to tell me the basics!

unless you are only going to use reconstituted RO, in your tanks products).(using only RO and rebuilding its content with propitiatory products) RO will not be successful in lowering ph (reliably). its another common fishkeeping fallacy. fondly held by those with RO addiction and or equipment. water has a way of finding its level, its called buffering. truth is, you dont need it, but it can be used. you just have to decide if you want all the hassle and massive cost, of making every drop of water that goes into your tank.

My understanding is that the kH of the water is what buffers it and affects the ph.
So if you use RO and lower the volume of water containing the carbonates, the ph will surely change?

 

[Rorie]

I did not mean change the make up of the RO filter, i meant add carbon to my tank's filter. This way I would be able to remove the toxins that are in my water through filtration, rather than the RO filter? Or have I got that wrong?

My PH in my tank is low due to ADA substrate....steady at 6.5. I guess I am still a little unclear on what is best to do when adding water to my aquarium during a WC as it is 7.5 out my tap.

The RO comes into play to give the water a Really good clean, and ‘re-set’ its values? From what I understand from the posts above, while it is sitting for the period of time before adding to the aquarium, you can either let nature take its course and take the PH you are given, or add chemicals to alter the water parameters to match what you want for your tank?

Did I read that the PH out an RO filter is around 6.5? This is why I was questioning the need for me to let it ‘rest’ and why I could not just add it directly into the aquarium (other than the speed at which it will fill obviously).

I hear a lot of people do not bother with an RO filter and keep discus. Is it luck, or is it just ‘better’ to use an RO system?
I am away to buy a second filter for my tank, so I will have about 2000l/h filtration in my 360L tank along with my 4000l/h powerhead – giving 5x filtration, or 16.6x turn over. That will surly help keep the water clean for discus?

Final question, I read about putting some sort of filter in the intake tube of my filter to catch much as it goes in.... is this a well known way of doing things? I cant find a link to the exact explanation at the moment. But is it just similar to putting a fine layer of filter media at the top of the filter to catch any rubbish which is replaced weekly?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

RO water is basically "pure" water. It should have a neutral pH (7.0) and close to 0 GH and KH. In essence we are talking about managing the TDS of the water when using RO. The closest measure of TDS most fish keepers get is the GH, however this is not a complete reading of the various solids dissolved in the water which is why most folks who use RO also have a TDS or conductivity meter.

Because RO water lacks the normal minerals and elements fond in "normal" water, you can not keep fish in 100% RO for any extended period of time. However, you can put fish into 100% RO for shorter periods and this is a trick often used by folks who import low pH fish that are harder to heep initially- examples would be Altum angels or licorice gouramis. These fish may put into 100% RO for the first couple of weeks and then the water is modified by mixing it with tap over an extended period. The goal is to get to a final level of either pure tap or a permanent mix. Failing that, the RO must be reconstituted with chemical additions to get the parameters to needed levels.

Aside from needing to clean up one's tap to make it usable in cases where it is not, the main uses for RO are for adjusting one's TDS and/or pH. Because RO has a 0 KH, changing the pH is very easy. KH is what makes water resistant to attempts to change the pH. By starting with a base of RO one can add buffers which will bring the pH to a desired level and help to hold it there. The need for very low pH with new imports is that bacteria do not do well in very low pH. As a result fish who live in this sort of water in the while will have lowered immunity to a lot of bacteria that are present in aquariums and against which hardier wild and tank raised fish have normal immunity levels.

As mentioned above, RO is like a blank slate that allows one to create water with desired parameters that are way different than those in one's tap. RO units consist of several modules which do different things. A 3 stage unit may suffice for some while others need to go whole hog and use a 5 or 6 stage unit. For example, if one has well water with no chlorine/chloramines, then they won't need the RO units that remove these things. Some folks may also need to use a DI unit in concert with the RO unit.

Finally there is also DI- De-ionisation which is often used in concert with an RO unit.

The abbreviation RO stands for Reverse Osmosis and DI is short of De-Ionisation, which are both techniques of purifying, removing the impurities from, tap water so that it is suitable for use in a marine aquarium. RO/DI is using both techniques, first RO then DI, to obtain the water. RO by itself has difficultly removing some of the ions from the water, so typically that treatment is followed by DI to ensure the last lot are removed. The difference between RO and DI water is the technique used to remove the impurities/ions. RO uses a semi-permeable membrane which is fine enough so that essentially only water molecules will pass through it. As a result you produce about 3 times as much waste water as purified water. DI uses ion exchange resins, which exchange the ions in the water, such as iron, magnesium, copper for hydrogen and nitrate, sulphate, phosphate for hydroxide. DI is fine to use, and if done correctly is better quality than a straight RO system (without a DI on the end).

From OZ Reef

 

[Squidward]

Twotankamin,

I have never heard of a DI Unit.
How does it work?
Does it take as long as RO? How many gals per day?
Does it produce as much waste?
Is it easy to use?

Thanks
Squidward

 

[Rorie]

Twotankamin,

I have never heard of a DI Unit.
How does it work?
Does it take as long as RO? How many gals per day?
Does it produce as much waste?
Is it easy to use?

Thanks
Squidward

From what i am aware, DI is part of the RO system.

I learnt from here
LINK

 

[TwoTankAmin]

RO and DI are two different systems but are often used together as a single unit. The basic difference is that RO Filters through carbon, through micron cartridges and though a membrane while a DI unit uses resins to exchange ions. For most tank applications, RO is enough, but when it is not, DI is added.