Rams In Community Tank?

[21rm]

Ive posted the start of this in the old world cichlids but need to continue here.

Im wonderin would a pair of rams be ok in a community tank.
Ive decided so against mixin the ram and kribensis,

but even though rams are peaceful, would a pair of them gang up and bully my other fish in my community tank.

Ive a 170l with pearl gouramis, zebra danios and peppered cories

 

[Curiosity101]

Are you thinking of getting Bolivian rams?

If so then they are notoriously hard to sex. The best way to get yourself a pair is to buy 5 or so from the shop (if they're juveniles) and allow them to pair off naturally.
It should be obvious as they will stick together away from the other 3.
Then you re-home the other 3, job done

And no, even at breeding time they aren't too aggressive at all. So they are safe to have in a community

 

[nmonks]

Depends on the ram cichlid species.

The common ram (blue ram, German ram) Mikrogeophagus ramirezi is a terrible community fish. It rarely does well at the low temperatures required. If you happen to have the water chemistry and temperature this species needs -- 30 degrees C, pH 5-6, less than 5 degrees dH -- then it can be kept with community species that tolerate the same conditions*, such as cardinal tetras or perhaps some of the gouramis. But otherwise, the vast majority of rams thrown into community tanks die miserable deaths.

By contrast, the Bolivian ram Mikrogeophagus altispinosus is a superb community fish. It does well at normal community tank conditions -- 25 degrees C, pH 6.5-7.5, 5-15 degrees dH -- and so can be mixed with all the usual species. Because it's a little bigger than the common ram and perhaps a little less colourful, people tend to overlook it. That is a foolish mistake.

Do see my article in the current TFH Magazine on bad community tank choices. The ram cichlid is in there!

Cheers, Neale

*Water this warm would be incredibly stressful for danios and peppered Corydoras, which as you hopefully know prefer low-end tropical conditions, around 18-24 degrees C, tops.

 

[21rm]

hey there, thanks for the replies/
Bolivian rams i think its gonna be however, im not sure how im supposed to rehome the 3 that dont pair off?

 

[Truck]

Hi Neil...do you have an online paper anywhere that i can use to back this statement up...im always spreading this info about the higher temperatures and get slated for it and so far i have failed to find any binding scientific evidence on the net for it that i can use to back myself up

Depends on the ram cichlid species.

The common ram (blue ram, German ram) Mikrogeophagus ramirezi is a terrible community fish. It rarely does well at the low temperatures required. If you happen to have the water chemistry and temperature this species needs -- 30 degrees C, pH 5-6, less than 5 degrees dH -- then it can be kept with community species that tolerate the same conditions*, such as cardinal tetras or perhaps some of the gouramis. But otherwise, the vast majority of rams thrown into community tanks die miserable deaths.

By contrast, the Bolivian ram Mikrogeophagus altispinosus is a superb community fish. It does well at normal community tank conditions -- 25 degrees C, pH 6.5-7.5, 5-15 degrees dH -- and so can be mixed with all the usual species. Because it's a little bigger than the common ram and perhaps a little less colourful, people tend to overlook it. That is a foolish mistake.

Do see my article in the current TFH Magazine on bad community tank choices. The ram cichlid is in there!

Cheers, Neale

*Water this warm would be incredibly stressful for danios and peppered Corydoras, which as you hopefully know prefer low-end tropical conditions, around 18-24 degrees C, tops.

 

[steve1572]

hey there, thanks for the replies/
Bolivian rams i think its gonna be however, im not sure how im supposed to rehome the 3 that dont pair off?

i would say you will be fine with blue rams i have a pair in each of my three tanks which are all 180l with no trouble but i would try to buy some from a breeder not the shops as they are more used to lower temps mine are all in 27 degrees and have all breed and raised fry with no problems to the other fish and one of them tanks also has a breeeding pair of kribs

 

[Truck]

hey there, thanks for the replies/
Bolivian rams i think its gonna be however, im not sure how im supposed to rehome the 3 that dont pair off?

i would say you will be fine with blue rams i have a pair in each of my three tanks which are all 180l with no trouble but i would try to buy some from a breeder not the shops as they are more used to lower temps mine are all in 27 degrees and have all breed and raised fry with no problems to the other fish and one of them tanks also has a breeeding pair of kribs

you really playing the lottery with the lower temps

heres some of the possibilities:
weakened or failing immune system
slower digestion
weight loss

 

[steve1572]

hey there, thanks for the replies/
Bolivian rams i think its gonna be however, im not sure how im supposed to rehome the 3 that dont pair off?

i would say you will be fine with blue rams i have a pair in each of my three tanks which are all 180l with no trouble but i would try to buy some from a breeder not the shops as they are more used to lower temps mine are all in 27 degrees and have all breed and raised fry with no problems to the other fish and one of them tanks also has a breeeding pair of kribs

you really playing the lottery with the lower temps

heres some of the possibilities:
weakened or failing immune system
slower digestion
weight loss

ive had ohe pair for eighteen months now and raised 7 lots fo fry i thinka its what they are used to from where you buy them and the breeder i bought them from had all his at that temp maybe i was just lucky with where i got them

 

[nmonks]

What Mikrogeophagus ramirezi needs to do well has been amply discussed in the hobby literature. Paul Loiselle for example, one of the foremost experts on cichlids, describes them thus in his Cichlid Aquarium book:

The ram is a warm water species that does not appreciate temperatures lower than 78 F and spawns most freely between 85 F - 88 F.

Jorge Vierke illustrates a place where the species lives in his Dwarf Cichlids book, and comments:

Here many A. ramirezi live and rear their young. Temperature of the water in the inlet: 30-35 C.

Do some people keep them in cooler water? Yes. Are they sometimes successful? Yes. But are cooler, hard, and more basic conditions optimal? No. This is precisely why this species has such a bad reputation in the hobby for being disease prone. For example, if you look at this page over at PFK, you'll see half the people commenting on them talk about how difficult it is to keep them alive! The same on this article as well. So when I say that these are challenging fish, I'm not making this stuff up! Every day I spend about an hour over at Wet Web Media answering queries from people with sick fish, and ram cichlids are very regular subjects of such e-mails.

In part, this is a problem with how they are farmed, and for decades now the stock being sent out from Asia has been of extremely poor quality. So as well as being kept too cold by the retailer, ram cichlids in the shops were likely juiced up on hormones and antibiotics just to keep them looking good. On the other hand, wild fish are very sensitive with regard to water temperature, water chemistry, and water quality, so while better in many ways, they're still very difficult fish for the casual or inexperienced aquarist to maintain. Ram cichlids certainly have a very low tolerance of nitrate, and Hexamita infections are very common causes of mortality.

Cheers, Neale

 

[21rm]

hey nmonks, thanks for the reply and also for them links.
They very helpful

 

[Curiosity101]

I just want to make a quick point here.

Although I agree that wild caught stock will be prone to disease and death at lower temperature.
You cannot compare this to tank bred individuals that have been bred to give several generations.

If they are bred at, for example, 27C for a few generations. Those that survive will be the fish that have slightly different anatomy which allows them to deal with the lower temperatures.
So over time they will 'as a species' become more tolerant to lower temperatures as by natural selection the fry that can't deal with it will die.
Making the alleles which code for certain digestive enzymes etc (that are sensitive the temps below 28C), more rare. And the ones that code for more favourable characteristics will 'over generations' become more common.


Having said the above, I would still go with Bolivian rams as they are my preffered Ram species. And can happily live in 24-26C no matter what source you get the from.

 

[meguro]

Not to hijack the thread, but what are the temperatures of the rivers bolivian rams are found in?

Regarding the tank breeding advantage, you shouldn't exclude possible defects from bad breeding practices.

 

[nmonks]

You cannot compare this to tank bred individuals that have been bred to give several generations.

Yes and no. If breeders actively selected for fish that stayed healthy -- across a full 5 year life span -- and spawned freely at, say, the normal 25 degrees C, then yes, over time, you would produce a "domesticated" ram that was more tolerant than the wild type. However, if the fish used for breeding have short lives at lower temperatures, and breeding is done by raising the temperature, then this domestication process will not take place.

It helps to think of this in terms of genetics. To select those fish with genes that allow them to operate healthily across their normal live span at 25 degrees C requires that you maintain them for several years, and then breed from those fish that have clearly done well across that time frame. Say, adults who are two or three years old. This way you'd have a good handle on which fish had the tolerant genes and which ones did not.

But fish farmers and most breeders don't work this way. They breed fish as young as possible (which is why tank-bred fish are commonly smaller than wild fish, because females don't get to choose the biggest, strongest males) and routinely raise water temperature to trigger breeding. Ergo, they have no time (or inclination) to select cold-tolerant genes.

I would agree that over time angelfish and discus have both been "domesticated" to some degree, in part by hybridisation. None of the commercially bred angels or discus in the trade are true species. They're all hybrids, so as well as selection of favourable genes, there's some hybrid vigour in the mix as well, making these domesticated fish tougher than any of their parent species.

But I have seen no evidence whatsoever than ram cichlids are getting stronger over time. Quite the reverse in fact. Wild rams, kept in proper water conditions, are just as easy (or difficult!) to maintain as any other wild dwarf cichlid. Commercially farmed ram cichlids may be cheaper than wild fish, but are they easier to maintain? I don't really think so, not in any meaningful sense. Far too many people still end up with sickly rams that barely live a few months, let alone the 3-5 years you'd expect from a fish of this type.

Quite possibly ram cichlids will improve with time. Angels were first kept around 1910, and by the 1960s you had obviously domesticated angels such as marbled angels and golden angels. So there's been something like 100 years of breeding and selection going on. Perhaps if breeders made an effort to select ram cichlids with demonstrable tolerance for cooler water conditions, after a couple of decades we may get a genuinely hardy, fully domesticated ram cichlid. But we do not have such a fish now. At least, not in my opinion.

Cheers, Neale

Fishbase reports 22-26 C, but the usual 25 degrees C of most aquaria seems to suit them very well. At the lower end of the range, they'd be good companions for neons, swordtails, danios and other fish that don't like particularly warm water.

Cheers, Neale

Not to hijack the thread, but what are the temperatures of the rivers bolivian rams are found in?.

 

[LiveYourLife]

I have a GBR in my community tank, ( used to have a pair until he swam into the side of the tank at a fair speed ) She is absolutely fine with all other fish except when a piece f cucumber is in the tank...she gaurds it like crazy, chasing away any other fish..Even the 12" Plec!!

 

[ZoddyZod]

Have read this thread with great interest. I too am considering Bolivian Rams for my community and it's reassuring to see that they would suit the conditions in my tank. Some of the the articles I have read have been conflicting regarding opptimum temp, with 25c being suggested as the LOWEST requirement.