Ram question

[Byron]

Have you kept both of these species, you seem very knowledgeable

Yes I have, and spawned them. Though as I mentioned above, personal experience is not always best evidence, but when it is in agreement with the scientific evidence from the habitat it takes on more credibility.

 

[otterblue]

Just realized I neglected to mention the temperature issue. M. altispinosus is fine in the "normal" tropical range in the high 70's (24-26C). But M. ramirezi must have it very much warmer, in the range 82-86F (28-30C) and a lot of fish will not manage. No cories can live in this warm water long-term.

May I ask, what would be a good bottom dweller/cleaner with Rams? I've read some care sheets that show a few corydoras with their high temperature range in the low 80's, although maybe that's not intended to be long term.

 

[Byron]

May I ask, what would be a good bottom dweller/cleaner with Rams? I've read some care sheets that show a few corydoras with their high temperature range in the low 80's, although maybe that's not intended to be long term.

M. rmirezi (the common or blue ram in any variety) must have high temperatures, and there are no Corydoras species that can manage this long-term.

M. altispinosus on the other hand is fine in less warm temperatures, and many if not most all of the non-dwarf species of Corydoras are worth considering.

BTW, there are no true "cleaner" fish; even cories need very specific foods fed to them, they cannot be relied upon to eat leftovers. Snails and shrimps do good cleaning, snails being less likely to get eaten than shrimp.

 

[threecharacters]

If you could provide me with links to this data, I'd appreciate it. I seriously will look into it. As for SF, that is an old profile but I will check into that later and see if anything is amiss. The "live in solitude" was the observation of this species in the habitat, by Linke & Staeck. Habitat observations are always the best evidence. My own experience with this species has been along similar lines, though "experience" is not often the best evidence, as specific circumstances and/or individual fish can impact the behaviours and lead to a false conclusion.

Just googling Mikrogeophagus altispinosus care/breeding comes up with a few links mentioning that they can be kept in groups with many of the links suggesting that they are peaceful fish. Some example profiles (not including the SF profile that says the same) are:
Link 1 --- "These dwarf cichlids are best bought young, in a group of six to eight specimens;"
Link 2 --- "Bolivian Rams are good to keep together in small groups. There is no right or wrong here, they do well both alone, in a pair or in a group. If you want to breed them, get a group of 4-8 then let them pair off and separate the couples. Squabbles among the school are common and usually harmless. Ensure they have a big enough tank (55+ gallon), and all will be fine."
Link 3 --- I don't have a direct quote here, but it sounds like this person was keeping two breeding pairs in the same tank, they reference a dominant and non-dominant pair when describing husbandry of the eggs.

After reading more, I will say that it seems like 29 gal is too small for a group of these. I have not kept them personally, and I was just relaying what I had read and heard about them.

I will say that "Observations made in the habitat suggest that this species lives in solitude (individual fish alone) apart from reproduction periods (Linke & Staeck, 1994)." Appears inconsistent with "These are not harem fish; the male selects his female and if she accepts, they will bond. This often lasts their lifetime, but not always [exception again]."

Still, since you have experience with the species you probably can give better advice on their keeping.

 

[kribensis12]

Link 1 --- "These dwarf cichlids are best bought young, in a group of six to eight specimens;"
Link 2 --- "Bolivian Rams are good to keep together in small groups. There is no right or wrong here, they do well both alone, in a pair or in a group. If you want to breed them, get a group of 4-8 then let them pair off and separate the couples. Squabbles among the school are common and usually harmless. Ensure they have a big enough tank (55+ gallon), and all will be fine."
Link 3 --- I don't have a direct quote here, but it sounds like this person was keeping two breeding pairs in the same tank, they reference a dominant and non-dominant pair when describing husbandry of the eggs.

I will say that "Observations made in the habitat suggest that this species lives in solitude (individual fish alone) apart from reproduction periods (Linke & Staeck, 1994)." Appears inconsistent with "These are not harem fish; the male selects his female and if she accepts, they will bond. This often lasts their lifetime, but not always [exception again]."

Still, since you have experience with the species you probably can give better advice on their keeping.

I think that I'll have to take @Byron's side here.

I think the issue is that it's easy to feel like you are hearing two different, incompatible pieces of information when in reality, I believe we are hearing two pieces of accurate information --> but the information is accurate at different part of the fish's life.

In my experience and also as commonly notated by other reputable websites is that Bolivian Rams are less aggressive than German Blue's. It is not a peaceful, harmless cichlid. Furthermore, living in solitary and forming a bonded pair are not mutually exclusive.

At location points, they appear to be a solitary fish. It is my supposition that they are referring to adults - most rams do very well in larger groups as they grow out. As they mature, they find a mate and disengage from the hierarchical society they were once part of.

So if you are imagining a timeline of the fishes life/development let's put it like this:

<6-8 months: Fish is not sexually mature, but is mildly aggressive. They will likely "school" (loose term because I don't think I've seen any cichlid actually school) and work well in a larger tank.

>8 months and on: These fish are likely sexually mature and long term, will not be compatible together. In the wild they would find their own piece of rock/leaf litter and claim it as their own.

In summary, Bolivian's are less aggressive than German's but are still territorial and like most rams, they prefer to live a life of semi-solitude with their mate.

 

[anewbie]

If you could provide me with links to this data, I'd appreciate it. I seriously will look into it. As for SF, that is an old profile but I will check into that later and see if anything is amiss. The "live in solitude" was the observation of this species in the habitat, by Linke & Staeck. Habitat observations are always the best evidence. My own experience with this species has been along similar lines, though "experience" is not often the best evidence, as specific circumstances and/or individual fish can impact the behaviours and lead to a false conclusion.

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus – Bolivian Ram (Crenicara altispinosa, Microgeophagus altispinosus, Papiliochromis altispinosus) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

 

[anewbie]

M. rmirezi (the common or blue ram in any variety) must have high temperatures, and there are no Corydoras species that can manage this long-term.

M. altispinosus on the other hand is fine in less warm temperatures, and many if not most all of the non-dwarf species of Corydoras are worth considering.

BTW, there are no true "cleaner" fish; even cories need very specific foods fed to them, they cannot be relied upon to eat leftovers. Snails and shrimps do good cleaning, snails being less likely to get eaten than shrimp.

I wanted to ask you about this - as it is generally said that sterbai do well with discus and rams; is that a misconception ?

 

[Byron]

I wanted to ask you about this - as it is generally said that sterbai do well with discus and rams; is that a misconception ?

Yes, it is inaccurate and misleading. [BTW, I will answer this post here, and then be back later on the other issue.] No species of Corydoras should be maintained permanently at the temperature required by discus, blue/common rams, or other warmth-requiring species. Temporary heat waves, or necessary treatment, are not long-term and thus usually tolerated well by most cory species. But permanent high temperatures are destructive to the fish because the metabolism is in overdrive, and the fish quite simply burns out. It may survive to an earlier-than-normal death, or (often) succumb to other issues it would be able to fight off if not for the weakening it is suffering from the high temperature.

 

[Byron]

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus – Bolivian Ram (Crenicara altispinosa, Microgeophagus altispinosus, Papiliochromis altispinosus) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Post #20 by @kribensis12 has said it as well as I could, and that is exactly the issue...the tank size is crucial, and the development of the fish from juvenile to maturity factors in.

I have seen tanks of this species in this or that store, and if one takes the time to observe quietly (not easy in a store, but sitting/standing observing the tank for 15-20 minutes) the males will continually challenge each other, but charging, rarely more; this is because they are flexing their inherent traits, and they are crowded in the small tank space so things do not usually play out as they would in the habitat. However, acquire the fish and put them into the proper environment and they should then develop properly according to the species' genetic programming.

In 2008 I acquired a beautiful male Bolivian, and housed it in my 5-foot long 115g Amazon Riverscape tank, and after a couple years I acquired a very fine looking female. I did not know the issues back then, and I introduced the female to the tank. The two obviously interacted, and spawned four times. Then the male killed her. Looking back with the value of acquired knowledge and hindsight, there were clear signs all along that things were not going smoothly, and the male finally had had enough of her. That 5-foot tank was "his" space as the sole cichlid, and in spite of being very heavily planted, it could not provide protection for the female from the wrath of the male. I didn't try again, and the male lived into his tenth year, which I consider is good for a fish having a normal tank lifespan of 4-5, maybe 6 years. There were signs throughout that the other fish (various tetras and cories) clearly accepted the Bolivian as the lord and master of the tank. That is the inherent nature of the species, and neither I nor any other aquarist will ever succeed in changing the genetics.

I will take a look at the SF profile and see if changes are warranted or not.

 

[Byron]

I have now reviewed the links in post #19 and would offer these observations.

Link 1 --- "These dwarf cichlids are best bought young, in a group of six to eight specimens;"

The article is OK as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough to be of real value. Yes, acquiring a small group is good, and as I have written countless times, the fish will find their mate from within the group (or may anyway), and a bonded pair will form. No mention is made of the tank size for this, but it needs to be substantial. The author also then says without question to provide a divider to separate the pair because of the aggressiveness of the male. This is exactly what I have cautioned. Even in a larger tank, peace is not likely to reign once a pair (or more than one pair, quite possible) forms. I have already mentioned how my male Bolivian in a 5-foot tank considered the entire space "his," and none of us is going to alter the genetic blueprint just to suit ourselves.

One other comment on this article--the photo is not M. altispinosus but M. ramirezi.

Link 2 --- "Bolivian Rams are good to keep together in small groups. There is no right or wrong here, they do well both alone, in a pair or in a group. If you want to breed them, get a group of 4-8 then let them pair off and separate the couples. Squabbles among the school are common and usually harmless. Ensure they have a big enough tank (55+ gallon), and all will be fine."

This link is the same article as link 1. The link within your comment is to a scientific paper on shoaling. I will need more time to read that, but a read of the Abstract and a skim through the rest suggests this has no real relevance to the issues I stated that are being disputed. M. altispinosus is not in the study, they use Semotilus atromaculatus (creek chubs) and Rhinichthys atratulus (blacknose dace) which are not cichlids, and are shoaling species.

Link 3 --- I don't have a direct quote here, but it sounds like this person was keeping two breeding pairs in the same tank, they reference a dominant and non-dominant pair when describing husbandry of the eggs.

I agree the info is very sketchy and incomplete. His conclusion in this paragraph...

During courting the degree of aggression is quite varied, sometimes the male is content to casually follow the female around, and other times, the same male will outright harass the female, however no damage is ever inflicted; ample cover for the female is necessary for this reason. An adult pair can spawn every 3 weeks, and most aggression is confined to the intermittent period between spawns, or early in the courting process. After the female has developed eggs and shows interest in the male's advances, any aggression is converted to the dramatic courting displays previously mentioned.​

is not reliable, I have already noted the back and forth with my "pair" and in a 5-foot tank the female was killed. The species is the way it is.

 

[anewbie]

Post #20 by @kribensis12 has said it as well as I could, and that is exactly the issue...the tank size is crucial, and the development of the fish from juvenile to maturity factors in.

I have seen tanks of this species in this or that store, and if one takes the time to observe quietly (not easy in a store, but sitting/standing observing the tank for 15-20 minutes) the males will continually challenge each other, but charging, rarely more; this is because they are flexing their inherent traits, and they are crowded in the small tank space so things do not usually play out as they would in the habitat. However, acquire the fish and put them into the proper environment and they should then develop properly according to the species' genetic programming.

In 2008 I acquired a beautiful male Bolivian, and housed it in my 5-foot long 115g Amazon Riverscape tank, and after a couple years I acquired a very fine looking female. I did not know the issues back then, and I introduced the female to the tank. The two obviously interacted, and spawned four times. Then the male killed her. Looking back with the value of acquired knowledge and hindsight, there were clear signs all along that things were not going smoothly, and the male finally had had enough of her. That 5-foot tank was "his" space as the sole cichlid, and in spite of being very heavily planted, it could not provide protection for the female from the wrath of the male. I didn't try again, and the male lived into his tenth year, which I consider is good for a fish having a normal tank lifespan of 4-5, maybe 6 years. There were signs throughout that the other fish (various tetras and cories) clearly accepted the Bolivian as the lord and master of the tank. That is the inherent nature of the species, and neither I nor any other aquarist will ever succeed in changing the genetics.

I will take a look at the SF profile and see if changes are warranted or not.

I wasn't disagreeing; just providing the link that others alluded to. My understanding is bolivan rams can be problematic in groups. I've kept gbr and angels and am well aware of fish changing during maturity et all. angels are another fish that people recommend in groups but within the confine of an aquarium it is very difficult to get stable peaceful dynamics in an aquarium smaller than 8 feet; however m:f bonds are very strong (while they last) and pairs can be safely kept. My experience with gbr are a bit more unpredictable. The male can be overly aggressive protecting eggs and frys to the extent of killing the female but when they work together well things are fairly stable.

 

[Byron]

I wasn't disagreeing; just providing the link that others alluded to. My understanding is bolivan rams can be problematic in groups. I've kept gbr and angels and am well aware of fish changing during maturity et all. angels are another fish that people recommend in groups but within the confine of an aquarium it is very difficult to get stable peaceful dynamics in an aquarium smaller than 8 feet; however m:f bonds are very strong (while they last) and pairs can be safely kept. My experience with gbr are a bit more unpredictable. The male can be overly aggressive protecting eggs and frys to the extent of killing the female but when they work together well things are fairly stable.

Thanks, I was getting two members mixed up. Anyway, I hope I have provided clarification to whomever was doubtful.

 

[threecharacters]

This link is the same article as link 1. The link within your comment is to a scientific paper on shoaling. I will need more time to read that, but a read of the Abstract and a skim through the rest suggests this has no real relevance to the issues I stated that are being disputed. M. altispinosus is not in the study, they use Semotilus atromaculatus (creek chubs) and Rhinichthys atratulus (blacknose dace) which are not cichlids, and are shoaling species.

Whoops! I put in the wrong link, this is what I meant to link. It makes it seem like a group is an acceptable way to keep them, though it does suggest a 55 gal.

The other hyperlink I didn't add? Does this website sometimes add hyperlinks on its own? I've noticed some websites do that.

I was really basing my original suggestion on the info on Seriously Fish which paints Mikrogeophagus altispinosus as a gregarious cichlid that is ideally kept in a group of 6-8. This should probably be changed if it's incorrect.

 

[Byron]

Whoops! I put in the wrong link, this is what I meant to link. It makes it seem like a group is an acceptable way to keep them, though it does suggest a 55 gal.

The other hyperlink I didn't add? Does this website sometimes add hyperlinks on its own? I've noticed some websites do that.

I was really basing my original suggestion on the info on Seriously Fish which paints Mikrogeophagus altispinosus as a gregarious cichlid that is ideally kept in a group of 6-8. This should probably be changed if it's incorrect.

SF has been corrected. Not sure about how links work on TFF, but some time back I did learn that they can sometimes be troublesome.