Quick clarifying questions about Interpet No.7 (Copper EDTA and Formaldehyde based medication)

[rebe]

Hi all, I have a few questions about using and removing this medication from a tank. I'd be very grateful if anybody can help answer them, as I've struggled to find the answers through google.

Anti Parasite, Slime & Velvet+ Composition:
- Copper EDTA 6636mg/100ml
- Formaldehyde 1000mg/100ml
- Quinine bisulfate 746mg/100ml
- Benzalkonium chloride 200mg/100ml
(1ml for 5 Litres)

1. Does this medication need to be re-dosed every 24h?
2. Will several large water changes then carbon in a filter be the best way to remove the medication?

 

[Aiken Drum]

This medication is a single dose treatment. If you need to repeat the treatment, wait 7 days, big water change and then redose.

Carbon will remove this medication from the water, so yes, a big water change and then carbon in the filter is a good wat of removing the medication from your aquarium water

 

[MaloK]

The copper level alone is terrifying. I would be suggesting sumptuous water changes, after uses.

 

[AJ356]

Has something else happened Rebe? Are the other medications and salt still in the water?

 

[GaryE]

Copper is dangerous stuff, which gets into silicone. It takes a long time to get rid of. It looks like a fantastic med for Oodinium, but if your fish had that, they'd be dead by now.
Recently I saw someone use a med whose active ingredient was chloramines, and that underlines what an unregulated wild west fish remedies can be. At one extreme, I can get hardly any meds - at another, there is some dangerous stuff out there.

If I chanced the med you have, I would be precise in the dosage, and remove it with carbon and water changes (and get rid of the carbon after). You have two nuclear options - formalin, and copper. Quinine is also good for velvet parasites. That is strong stuff.

Corydoras have scales, albeit modified ones, so the full suggested dosage should be good. It's kill or cure, but I would use it while wincing.

 

[AJ356]

The dose should be on the bottle or container.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

@GaryE

Chloramine-T has been used for decades to treat fish. If you would like links to all the studies go here and pick your studies. I only searched for papers published from 2012 to the present. If you remove the time constraint you get a lot more. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...024&q=chloramine-t+as+a+fish+medication&btnG=

Here is a good one from 2004

Altinok, I., 2004. Toxicity and therapeutic effects of chloramine-T for treating Flavobacterium columnare infection of goldfish. Aquaculture, 239(1-4), pp.47-56.

Abstract​

A clinical field trial was conducted to evaluate the efficacy of aqueous chloramine-T to control mortality of goldfish (Carassius auratus) fingerlings infected with Flavobacterium columnare. In addition, the acute toxicity of chloramine-T to goldfish was determined in glass aquaria under static conditions. Chloramine-T concentrations in the toxicity test ranged from 5.0 to 40 mg/l. The concentration of chloramine-T that killed 50% of the goldfish within 24 h (24-h LC50) was estimated as 24.3±0.6 mg/l (95% confidence limits). Two days after exposing goldfish to F. columnare, fish were treated with chloramine-T ranging from 0 to 25 mg/l. None of the uninfected control fish died, and all deaths occurred between 3 and 11 days after exposure to F. columnare. Mortality of the untreated control (0 mg/l chloramine-T) group was 70% while survival of fish was significantly increased with increasing chloramine-T concentration up to 15 mg/l chloramine-T. When the concentration of chloramine-T was increased from 15 to 20 or 25 mg/l, survival of fish decreased. F. columnare was isolated from skin and gills of all fish that died during the experiments but was not isolated from survivors 21 days after exposure to bacteria. Results indicate that 15 mg/l chloramine-T can be used to treat columnaris disease in C. auratus under the experimental conditions of this study.

full paper here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848604002984

 

[Colin_T]

Anti Parasite, Slime & Velvet+ Composition:
- Copper EDTA 6636mg/100ml
- Formaldehyde 1000mg/100ml
- Quinine bisulfate 746mg/100ml
- Benzalkonium chloride 200mg/100ml
(1ml for 5 Litres)

1. Does this medication need to be re-dosed every 24h?
2. Will several large water changes then carbon in a filter be the best way to remove the medication?

What are you trying to treat?

Copper will kill external protozoan parasites but it also kills invertebrates like snails and shrimp. If you have snails or shrimp in the tank, they need to be removed until treatment is finished and you have done at least 4 massive (80-90%) water changes and gravel cleaned the substrate. You can then add carbon and leave that in the filter for a week before adding invertebrates. Try adding one shrimp or snail and see if they live before adding all of them.

*NB* Never overdose with copper because it can kill fish too.

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Before adding any medication, work out the volume of water in the tank.
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Calculator

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Before adding any medication, do the following.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

Remove carbon from the filter (assuming it has any) before treating with chemicals or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working. You do not need to remove the carbon if you use salt.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

[AJ356]

Hi all, I have a few questions about using and removing this medication from a tank. I'd be very grateful if anybody can help answer them, as I've struggled to find the answers through google.

Anti Parasite, Slime & Velvet+ Composition:
- Copper EDTA 6636mg/100ml
- Formaldehyde 1000mg/100ml
- Quinine bisulfate 746mg/100ml
- Benzalkonium chloride 200mg/100ml
(1ml for 5 Litres)

1. Does this medication need to be re-dosed every 24h?
2. Will several large water changes then carbon in a filter be the best way to remove the medication?

Is this for the Corydoras? There is probably only so much different treatments they can take. What kind of issues are you having?

 

[GaryE]

@GaryE

Chloramine-T has been used for decades to treat fish. If you would like links to all the studies go here and pick your studies. I only searched for papers published from 2012 to the present. If you remove the time constraint you get a lot more. https/scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&as_ylo=2012&as_yhi=2024&q=chloramine-t+as+a+fish+medication&btnG=

Here is a good one from 2004

Altinok, I., 2004. Toxicity and therapeutic effects of chloramine-T for treating Flavobacterium columnare infection of goldfish. Aquaculture, 239(1-4), pp.47-56.

Abstract​

A clinical field trial was conducted to evaluate the efficacy of aqueous chloramine-T to control mortality of goldfish (Carassius auratus) fingerlings infected with Flavobacterium columnare. In addition, the acute toxicity of chloramine-T to goldfish was determined in glass aquaria under static conditions. Chloramine-T concentrations in the toxicity test ranged from 5.0 to 40 mg/l. The concentration of chloramine-T that killed 50% of the goldfish within 24 h (24-h LC50) was estimated as 24.3±0.6 mg/l (95% confidence limits). Two days after exposing goldfish to F. columnare, fish were treated with chloramine-T ranging from 0 to 25 mg/l. None of the uninfected control fish died, and all deaths occurred between 3 and 11 days after exposure to F. columnare. Mortality of the untreated control (0 mg/l chloramine-T) group was 70% while survival of fish was significantly increased with increasing chloramine-T concentration up to 15 mg/l chloramine-T. When the concentration of chloramine-T was increased from 15 to 20 or 25 mg/l, survival of fish decreased. F. columnare was isolated from skin and gills of all fish that died during the experiments but was not isolated from survivors 21 days after exposure to bacteria. Results indicate that 15 mg/l chloramine-T can be used to treat columnaris disease in C. auratus under the experimental conditions of this study.

full paper here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848604002984

It's a bit of a tangent for @rebe because we aren't talking about her med choice, but an example of over the counter remedies. But if you read that paper, it expresses concerns about using chloramines in aquarium conditions with warmer temps than an aquaculture set up for goldfish. Aquaculture papers trying to solve issues with 'food fish' don't always translate to small fish in aquariums. It also focuses on Flavibacter/columnaris, while the post I was alluding to presented it as a general antibacterial. As a last resort for a columnaris outbreak, I'd try it after reading that paper, but it looks like a specialized treatment being sold as a general one.
I don't need remedies often, with good sources for fish and an accent on prevention. I quarantine for over a month, if not permanently with single species tanks. But things happen. The 'fix' meds we see here have good active ingredients but in almost homeopathic amounts. I suspect they are to make us feel like we're doing something rather than being effective treatments for what ails our fish. There's a lot of that about.

@rebe's choice here looks ferocious to me, but she has been dealing with a chronic irritant with those Corys, and it may be time to really go after it, as it has survived her earlier attempts to deal with it. Everything she's using is proven, but with side effects if overdosed. I hope this time, it works.

 

[rebe]

Oh gosh, I knew that the ingredients were bad in high doses but I didn't realise that the normal instructed dose for this was the high dose. I've drained 70% of the tank for a water change just to be safe.
In short, my reasons for dosing this medication were that I'd ruled out every cause of excess mucous I could think of other than protozoans. Which this medication is supposed to treat

Carbon will remove this medication from the water, so yes, a big water change and then carbon in the filter is a good wat of removing the medication from your aquarium water

Thank you, good to know!

The copper level alone is terrifying. I would be suggesting sumptuous water changes, after uses.

I'm worried now about leaving it in, so I'm removing the medication as I'm not 100% sure it will help enough for it to be worth subjecting the corydoras to.

Has something else happened Rebe? Are the other medications and salt still in the water?

Nothing new really, still the issues with excessive mucous causing sand to stick to the corydoras which makes them flick and roll against the substrate. I'd tested pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, checked temperature, wiped the glass down inside, preformed a 75% water change, cleaned the filter and none of the tests showed levels that would bother the corydoras and the cleaning didn't help. The last thing I could think of was some kind of protozoan bothering them, which this medication is supposed to be good for.

If I chanced the med you have, I would be precise in the dosage, and remove it with carbon and water changes (and get rid of the carbon after).

Corydoras have scales, albeit modified ones, so the full suggested dosage should be good. It's kill or cure, but I would use it while wincing.

After reading these replies, it sounds too risky unless the corydoras are showing symptoms other than flicking and rolling. So I've started to remove the medication.

The dose should be on the bottle or container.

Yes, the dose was but nothing about how long to leave it in or how to remove it.

What are you trying to treat?

Copper will kill external protozoan parasites but it also kills invertebrates like snails and shrimp. If you have snails or shrimp in the tank, they need to be removed until treatment is finished and you have done at least 4 massive (80-90%) water changes and gravel cleaned the substrate.

Yes, protozoans. There are a couple of pest snails but they seem fine today. I dosed the tank around 20 hours ago.

Never overdose with copper because it can kill fish too.

I added the recommended bottle dose but I'm worried about that being too high now, so I've started water changes to remove it.



If it turns out that removing the med was the wrong thing to do then I can redose the tank?

Is this for the Corydoras? There is probably only so much different treatments they can take. What kind of issues are you having?

Yes, the corydoras pandas. The flicking and rolling is still concerning me. I would say between the 10 corydoras there would be 2-4 rolling/flicking fits per hour.

No visible issues with them other than the flicking behaviour.

@rebe's choice here looks ferocious to me, but she has been dealing with a chronic irritant with those Corys, and it may be time to really go after it, as it has survived her earlier attempts to deal with it. Everything she's using is proven, but with side effects if overdosed. I hope this time, it works.

Oh man, now I feel like I should add the medication back with the fresh (dechlorinated) water? I've also attached the longer video (3 minutes), so you guys can see these corys better.

 

[Colin_T]

Did you try salt for the protozoan infection?

Did the snail close its operculum or is it still crawling around?
If the copper medication did not kill the snail, then the fish should be fine at that level.

 

[rebe]

Did you try salt for the protozoan infection?

Did the snail close its operculum or is it still crawling around?
If the copper medication did not kill the snail, then the fish should be fine at that level.

I dosed 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres, which I finished removing around two weeks ago. I need to work out when exactly I added the salt though, I don't know the date for that.

The snails (bladder snails) are moving around and acting as normal. The species don't have an operculum (unless I'm mistaken) but they're crawling around just like any other day.

I'm refilling the tank with fresh water, and keeping note of the litres I add back. So I can add back the right amount of medication if you think so?

 

[rebe]

I refilled the tank after removing some of the medicated water. It took aprox 77.5 litres of fresh (temp matched and dechlorninated) to refill the tank. The tank has a volume of 105L, the sand, filter, heater and few plants takes up some of that 105L.

Do you think I should add 15mls of this medication to bring the level of medication back to the full, bottle dose?
My math could be wrong but I'd estimate that I removed around 85% of the medication.

Anti Parasite, Slime & Velvet+ Composition:
- Copper EDTA 6636mg/100ml
- Formaldehyde 1000mg/100ml
- Quinine bisulfate 746mg/100ml
- Benzalkonium chloride 200mg/100ml
(1ml for 5 Litres)

 

[rebe]

You might not want to tell me what to do here, but I could really use some guidance. Even just what you would do in this situation. I really want to solve this issue or at least come to a conclusion with this group of fish. I haven't added any medication back in yet, but I'm thinking about it. I'm still seeing the flicking/rolling behaviour.

@GaryE @Colin_T @AJ356 @TwoTankAmin @MaloK