question on transporting fish

Sorry crazyeddie, but MrV is right on. There is absolutely no benefit to saving old water. Bacteria is on surfaces, not free swimming, and the water is nothing but old fish water. The only reason I don't throw the fish right into the tank after I buy them is to get the temperature right.

What I say is not from anything but my own experience. I know from experience you can bag filter media with water. I know from experience that you don't need to save old fish water.

There is a practice I find that is common in this hobby, and most hobbies probably, that I try to avoid - it's called 'overcomplication'.
 
Bacteria is on surfaces, not free swimming, and the water is nothing but old fish water. The only reason I don't throw the fish right into the tank after I buy them is to get the temperature right.
But don't you acclimate your new fish? You mean you never add water from your tank to the bag so that the new fish will acclimate to your water parameters? Also, the water is coming from your own tank, so if you think your tanks contains lots of diseases, then I would think about not keeping any fish for awhile and figure out what's going on.

What I say is not from anything but my own experience. I know from experience you can bag filter media with water. I know from experience that you don't need to save old fish water.
Did you guys ever see information on cleaning filter media using tank water? This is becuase if you use regular tap water, you will remove the benificial bacteria from the media. Rinsing the filter in tank water will keep most of the benificial bacteria in the media.

There is a practice I find that is common in this hobby, and most hobbies probably, that I try to avoid - it's called 'overcomplication'.
CORRECT! I'm glad you and I are on the same page on this. :) When you go to a new location and using the water from there, you are making a big change in water parameters, the new location may have a difference in pH or maybe softer or harder than the original location you came from. You will overcomlicate things when bringing in these new things to the fish. I'm not sure if you know this, but a big change in pH would cause pH shock and probably kill the fish.

The transported fish would be already stressed out from being moved. Would you want to stress them out and overcomplicate everything by bringing in a change in water parameters too?

I'm just trying to help everyone here. There is probably a lot of myths being passed like "Fish grow to the size of their tanks" :rofl:
 
There are a few things I know.

1) Tap water tends not to vary too much, even across the world you will find that we all have fairly similar tap water for the most part, which is generally neutral to slightly alkaline. Fish can handle sligh changes in ph, just not drastic ones. If my ph is 8 and the new ph is 7.5 then yes, I would not worry about it. If the new ph is 6.5 then I would certainly acclimate them first - see #2.

2)You can acclimate a fish by gradually adding the new water into the bag, so the only old water you still need to keep is what you transported the fish in, and no more. I don't acclimate my fish because I buy my fish locally - their water is not much different then mine.

3)It's not diseases in the water, it's the toxins that have not yet been converted. It's the elements that tend to build up in the water from the living organisms that you keep. I'm not saying the old tap water is poison, I'm saying why go through the hassle of moving it when you can start off with nice, fresh, clean water for the fish.

Did you guys ever see information on cleaning filter media using tank water? This is becuase if you use regular tap water, you will remove the benificial bacteria from the media. Rinsing the filter in tank water will keep most of the benificial bacteria in the media.
What is this referring to? I dechlorinate my water.


I don't know what else to say except this is how I do it. I've moved five times in the past 8 years for a number of reasons (I hope not to again for quite a while!) and I've never lost a fish on a move ever, so I trust my methods.
 
Tap water tends not to vary too much, even across the world you will find that we all have fairly similar tap water for the most part, which is generally neutral to slightly alkaline. Fish can handle sligh changes in ph, just not drastic ones. If my ph is 8 and the new ph is 7.5 then yes, I would not worry about it. If the new ph is 6.5 then I would certainly acclimate them first - see #2.
Yes, tap water does vary. People use well, city, bottled, etc. I belong to a few a few freshwater forums and I've seen several posts refereing to increasing their pH or increasing their waters hardness. In my area, there is an LFS that has slighly acidic waters compaired to mine slighly alkaline. Certain fish are more sensitive to pH jumps.

3)It's not diseases in the water, it's the toxins that have not yet been converted. It's the elements that tend to build up in the water from the living organisms that you keep. I'm not saying the old tap water is poison, I'm saying why go through the hassle of moving it when you can start off with nice, fresh, clean water for the fish.
Over days, these toxins can pose a danger. That is why we do water changes and filters to remove them. The person here is only taking a 2 hour trip. BTW, have any of you bought any fish online? These fish are in the water for more than 12 hours. There's no expensive filtration in these bags, just fish, water and some conditioners. I'm sure the water in these bags are NOT fresh tap water but tank water in which they came from. At the LFS I used to work at, we often shipped these fish to other LFSs with just no more than the fish, tank water, and stress coat. They arrive alive and with careful acclimation, the fish survive and do well.

Did you guys ever see information on cleaning filter media using tank water? This is becuase if you use regular tap water, you will remove the benificial bacteria from the media. Rinsing the filter in tank water will keep most of the benificial bacteria in the media.

What is this referring to? I dechlorinate my water.

This is referring to the previous answer of..
What I say is not from anything but my own experience. I know from experience you can bag filter media with water. I know from experience that you don't need to save old fish water.
When keeping media, you should keep it in the original tank water to keep the benificial bacteria.

So you dechlorinate your water, but according to your previous statement, there's not a big change in water parameters, even across the world. Well, I test my water and they don't contain any chlorine so I don't need to use dechlorinator. So then I guess, there is no need for you to use dechlorinator either. ;)
 
Well this has turned into quite the debate. Sairie probably looks like this :crazy:

Yes, I have. But have you ever heard that those bacteria don't live in water, they live only on surfaces?
Yes, they live on surface, but they are in the water, full of nutrients for them. Their nutrients are the waste from the fish.

I agree with mrv, very little good bacteria is in the water. It attaches itself to surfaces. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary to save any of the original water. I've read that it's OK to do a 100% water change, so, I see no difference here.



No, you shouldn't and it's based on harmful bacteria in water New fishes may become sick, because they do not have resistance to these new bacteria.
But earlier you said bacteria LIVE ON SURFACES? You are NOW contradicting yourself. BTW, when you buy fish from the store. Take a look where they get the water from to put in the bag with the fish. I guess, with your theory, just ask them to put the fish in tap water so your fish at home does not get any diseases. :rofl:

BAD bacteria lives in water, which is why you should net your fish out of the bag when bringing home new fish from the store.


Don't ever add oxygen to cories, labyrinth fishes etc. that can breathe air above surface.
Uhmmm. I'm not sure if you know this, but fish cannot take in O2 like we do, they do not have lungs, but gills.

Uhmmm. Apparently you don't know that labyrinths breathe air from the surface of the water to supplement to the oxygen they get from the water.
 
hen keeping media, you should keep it in the original tank water to keep the benificial bacteria

You misread - or rather, I didn't put it very well. I do in fact transport my fish in aquairum water and the filter media as well. The second statement "I know from experience that you don't need to save old fish water." was seperate altogether, I meant in the aquarium in general, after it is set up again. Like I said earlier, If the ph difference is enough to make it necessary I would acclimate them, but I don't need to transport all of the water from the aquarium to do this.

We're arguing but I don't think we entirely disagree ;)
 
I've read that it's OK to do a 100% water change, so, I see no difference here.
:crazy: Then I suggest veryone who believes that to do at least a 90% water change in your tanks. I just feel sorry for your fishes. I will keep an eye on your posts stating "Help my ammonia/nitrites are spiking" or "My water is cloudy".

BAD bacteria lives in water, which is why you should net your fish out of the bag when bringing home new fish from the store.
Again, the water is coming from her tanks. This person is not bringing in any new fish that have been brought in from the wild. They have had these fish and just wants to move them. So no bad bacteria to worry about. Don't you often see your new tanks with material from an established tank?

Uhmmm. Apparently you don't know that labyrinths breathe air from the surface of the water to supplement to the oxygen they get from the water.
Yes, I do. But as I quoted earlier, they only do that if DO is low in the water they swim in. Even other fish will gasp to the surface of the water if the water is low in DO. If you see your fish doing this, then it's a dangerous sign and to increase water current/air.
 
test my water and they don't contain any chlorine so I don't need to use dechlorinator. So then I guess, there is no need for you to use dechlorinator either.
My tap water does not contain chlorine either, I only dechlorinate as a precaution. :p

But anyhow, those that use R/O water will use it to set up the new tank as well, the ph would be the same. Those that use tap water would more likely then not be moving to an area with similar water anyway.
 
Then I suggest veryone who believes that to do at least a 90% water change in your tanks. I just feel sorry for your fishes. I will keep an eye on your posts stating "Help my ammonia/nitrites are spiking" or "My water is cloudy".

If you maintain the water in your aquarium well, you water will contain low nitrates and a constant PH. The water you are replacing it with will be the same, or can be treated to be the same with any additives you might use to get it there. This means you can, in effect, do a 100% water change without any drastic changes for the fish, though I don't recommend it because the fish won't be comfortable flopping on the ground.

You should not have an ammonia or nitrite spike because the bacterial colony hasn't been touched. Fish continually breath ammonia into the water, the bio-filter will not starve itself to death.

I'm not recommending such large water changes. It isn't always easy to get the temperature close, and there isn't any point for the most part, but provided your tank is well maintained it wouldn't do any harm.
 
We're arguing but I don't think we entirely disagree

I love this. And I don't hate any of you guys. Beleive it or not, I hate debating, but I just like to give the proper information. I also LOVE to do a lot of research, which is why I have been asking for links or books that specific states some of the information given. I get mine from books as well as Internet sites. It's easier quoting from a website than a book for me and most websites state the same information as what's contained on the aquarium books.

Don't forget, when using RO with freshwater fish, you still have to add trace elements essential to freshwater fish. This is not just stress coat either. Kent Marine makes such an item.
 
crazie.eddie said:
I've read that it's OK to do a 100% water change, so, I see no difference here.
:crazy: Then I suggest veryone who believes that to do at least a 90% water change in your tanks. I just feel sorry for your fishes. I will keep an eye on your posts stating "Help my ammonia/nitrites are spiking" or "My water is cloudy".

BAD bacteria lives in water, which is why you should net your fish out of the bag when bringing home new fish from the store.
Again, the water is coming from her tanks. This person is not bringing in any new fish that have been brought in from the wild. They have had these fish and just wants to move them. So no bad bacteria to worry about. Don't you often see your new tanks with material from an established tank?

Uhmmm. Apparently you don't know that labyrinths breathe air from the surface of the water to supplement to the oxygen they get from the water.
Yes, I do. But as I quoted earlier, they only do that if DO is low in the water they swim in. Even other fish will gasp to the surface of the water if the water is low in DO. If you see your fish doing this, then it's a dangerous sign and to increase water current/air.
It is perfectly safe to do any volume of water change (90 - 100%). Since the good bacteria doesn't live in the water and as long as your bio-filter is working, there's no problem. Since there's very little good bacteria in the water, it's the bacteria in the FILTER that controls the ammonia and nitrites, so there certainly would be no ammonia/nitrite spikes from a water change!.

I only brought up the bad bacteria living in the water because you said mrv contradicted himself. Which he didn't. There's good bacteria, and there's bad bacteria. I realize that if these fish are put back into some of their own water, there would be no problem, 'cuz they're used to it!

I brought up the labyrinths breathing air because mrv said pure oxygen in the bag could be toxic.
 
Then I suggest veryone who believes that to do at least a 90% water change in your tanks. I just feel sorry for your fishes. I will keep an eye on your posts stating "Help my ammonia/nitrites are spiking" or "My water is cloudy".

Totally nasty and uncalled for remark... my fishes are extremely happy and well cared for, thank you.

The water does not control the nitrogen cycle, the bio-filter does.
 
I'm not recommending such large water changes. It isn't always easy to get the temperature close, and there isn't any point for the most part, but provided your tank is well maintained it wouldn't do any harm.
Not only that, but did you know there could be a possibility of a pH difference from your tank water than your tap? You can check this out by checking the pH from a glass of fresh tap water, then wait about 2 hours or so and check your pH again. The pH would be lower, this is becuase the CO2 in the water will escape. That's why those expensive pH regulators require a CO2 to inject into your tank (I believe that is the method). Here I am quoting the following from this site...
"One safe way to lower pH WITHOUT adjusting KH is to bubble CO2 (carbon dioxide) through the tank. The CO2 dissolves in water, and some of it forms carbonic acid. The formation of acid lowers the pH. Of course, in order for this approach to be practical, a steady source of CO2 bubbles (e.g. a CO2 tank) is needed to hold the pH in place. As soon as the CO2 is gone, the pH bounces back to its previous value."

my fishes are extremely happy and well cared for
So I guess you don't do large water changes. I wouldn't advise it either.

Totally nasty and uncalled for remark
Yeah, I'm sorry. But I KEEP ASKING for references to their statements, but I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE. As you can see, practically ALL my information have references to back me up. They're not coming from site owned by Billy Bob who setup an aquarium a month ago, but several reputable aquarium sites, some owned or run by vets.

The water does not control the nitrogen cycle, the bio-filter does.
Do you understand the nitrogen cycle? Here's a link regarding it. The key word is BIO. Bio filter contains benificial bacteria. This is also on the gravel bed, decor, some in water, fishes gills, and even in the filter media. That is why we seed new tanks using gravel from an established tank or even use the filter media from an established tank.

It's just if these statements are so called "True" then why not prove yourselves? When you guys do your water change, do 90%. Or better yet, take your fishes out and put in a bag of fresh water. Yes, make sure the temps is the same and you apply the correct conditioners. Then take out all your water from the tanks and replace it with FRESH clean tap water and make sure the temp is the same and add the proper conditioners. According to everyone's statement, then your fish would LOVE the fresh clean water. Or if you guys live near Chicago, then I will be glad to do the water changes for you, becuase I would like this to be proven to me. Like I said, I LOVE to do research and since nobody has given any links or references proving any of your statements, then all I just ask is that it will be proven to me. I have several empty fish transport bags and a Python No-Spill gravel changer that I can bring. I have some dechlorinators also I can bring.

Any takers?


FYI...Here is a site containing reports of how water parameters differ in various cities in the US alone.
 
I love debating
I su*ked at highschool in debate. :lol:

I just wish people would come up with some facts to their statements. It seems as though most of everyone is against me, but all the statements I have provided are facts from the links I provided. I'm still waiting for references regarding everyone else's statement.
 

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