Question About New Fish Tank And Fish-Less Cycle
- Thread starter FilipeB
- Start date
Blondielovesfish
Kia Ora
Carbon doesn't remove ammonia. It still isn't needed though so its good that you have removed it.
Are you sure you did the tests right? Did you use both bottles? Even with 0 ammonia it should still be a yellowy colour.
Are you sure you did the tests right? Did you use both bottles? Even with 0 ammonia it should still be a yellowy colour.
I did exactly what the test told me to do. There was no hint of color whatsoever. Looked just like plain water. I dosed a little bit more of ammonia yesterday and I will do the test again when I get home today.
Okay, so yesterday night I finally got some results. Thing is, I can't read the color chart
It goes from transparent ( 0 ) to very light yellow (1), making it super hard to read. Then 1 and 2 are really strong colors and can easily be told apart, but from 0 to 1 it's really super hard, specially since the water is transparent just makes the color even more clear
I'm using the salifert ammonia test kit. Is there any test kit for ammonia that's a lot easier to use / read?
You can see the color chart here (NOTE: This is a pic I took from google, it's not a photo I took):
Also, looking at a youtube video and this image, it appears that in their tests the water turns cloudy, which helps to read the color, but in my tests it's allways clear water and therefor transparent, which makes the light colors really hard to tell apart.
If anyone could give any tips please. I am aware that I won't be needing to test like mad so soon since the bacteria still needs time to grow, but I'd really like to be able to test properly so I can be ready when the time comes.
You can see the color chart here (NOTE: This is a pic I took from google, it's not a photo I took):
Also, looking at a youtube video and this image, it appears that in their tests the water turns cloudy, which helps to read the color, but in my tests it's allways clear water and therefor transparent, which makes the light colors really hard to tell apart.
If anyone could give any tips please. I am aware that I won't be needing to test like mad so soon since the bacteria still needs time to grow, but I'd really like to be able to test properly so I can be ready when the time comes.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
I am not sure if I saw what ammonia you are adding. But it should show up on a test kit if you wait at least 30 mins to test- giving it time to circulate.
As for plants, i would suggest you not add ones for the cycle if you do not intend to keep the tank planted. this will have the opposite effect of helping. While in the tank the amount of bacteria needed are less, take out the plants at the end of the cyle and you no longer have the capacity to process the same amount of ammonia. You create an instantly undercycled tank that way.
If memory serves me, Salifert makes a few different ammonia kits. Can you provide details on which one you got, please. I have never used the brand, so I need to check their site for details. There should be some indication on your kits of the manufacture dates. Some stores wont throw out old kits, so one can get a one that is out of date. Check this too, jik.
Also- what brand and how much dechlor did you use?
As for plants, i would suggest you not add ones for the cycle if you do not intend to keep the tank planted. this will have the opposite effect of helping. While in the tank the amount of bacteria needed are less, take out the plants at the end of the cyle and you no longer have the capacity to process the same amount of ammonia. You create an instantly undercycled tank that way.
If memory serves me, Salifert makes a few different ammonia kits. Can you provide details on which one you got, please. I have never used the brand, so I need to check their site for details. There should be some indication on your kits of the manufacture dates. Some stores wont throw out old kits, so one can get a one that is out of date. Check this too, jik.
Also- what brand and how much dechlor did you use?
I do plan on keeping the plants on the tank. Even I can see there'd be no point in cycling if I was going to remove them after xD
As for the declorinathor, I've used this, and for the ammonia, I've used this. As per the instructions I've added 13 drops from the declorinathor. I only added the ammonia the next day, and I added 2.5mml. I've allways waited at least 24 hours between dosing ammonia and doing the test. I will try to check the date on my test kit though.
My test kit is this one by the way: Salifert Profi-Test Kit - Ammonia
As for the declorinathor, I've used this, and for the ammonia, I've used this. As per the instructions I've added 13 drops from the declorinathor. I only added the ammonia the next day, and I added 2.5mml. I've allways waited at least 24 hours between dosing ammonia and doing the test. I will try to check the date on my test kit though.
My test kit is this one by the way: Salifert Profi-Test Kit - Ammonia
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I just remembered something. When I put my dechlorinator in, I still had the carbon filter in. Could that have absorbed it?
Also, I'm now trying to figure out if I'm going to order the API ammonia test kit or the tetra one.
Also, I'm now trying to figure out if I'm going to order the API ammonia test kit or the tetra one.
greenmumma141
Fish Herder
I've always used the API ammonia kit. the colors range from yellow (0ppms) all the way up to forest green. I've never had any problems but I've heard that a lot of ppl can never get it to appear as yellow as the chart shows, so it's always questionable between 0-0.25ppms. I've never used the tetra kit before.
The carbon won't affect the dechlorinator
The carbon won't affect the dechlorinator
Hey again guys.
My API ammonia test kit got here yesterday, so I tried it out then. It's a whole LOT easier to read the color scheme. So according to it, I had between 0.5-1ppm of ammonia, which I thought was incredibly low, but I guess it could happen. So I dosed enough ammonia to put the tank up to 3ppm, left it alone from yesterday's afternoon to now, re-tested it and the test still seems to say 0.5 to 1ppm ammonia. This is getting really frustrating. I think it's impossible that the plants I have on the tank would eat up a big part of ammonia. I can't figure out what's happening
Does anyone got any idea of what is going on?
P.S. I also have some snails on the tank now, they must have come with the plants. My dad wants to get rid of them so I'll be looking into ways to do that. But I don't think snails would affect ammonia in any way.
My API ammonia test kit got here yesterday, so I tried it out then. It's a whole LOT easier to read the color scheme. So according to it, I had between 0.5-1ppm of ammonia, which I thought was incredibly low, but I guess it could happen. So I dosed enough ammonia to put the tank up to 3ppm, left it alone from yesterday's afternoon to now, re-tested it and the test still seems to say 0.5 to 1ppm ammonia. This is getting really frustrating. I think it's impossible that the plants I have on the tank would eat up a big part of ammonia. I can't figure out what's happening
Does anyone got any idea of what is going on?
P.S. I also have some snails on the tank now, they must have come with the plants. My dad wants to get rid of them so I'll be looking into ways to do that. But I don't think snails would affect ammonia in any way.
Hmm, guys, out of curiosity, I just ran a nitrite test, and it's giving me 4ppm nitrite!!!
I was under the impression this process would take weeks, not a few days!
What's your opinione guys?
I'm going to do a nitrate test, but I expect that to return 0. Will let you know the results.
I was under the impression this process would take weeks, not a few days!
What's your opinione guys?
I'm going to do a nitrate test, but I expect that to return 0. Will let you know the results.
Hey guys. Done and re-done the tests. I did the nitrite test wrong previously though, but I've got the right values now. So... I've got the following:
Ammonia: 0.5 to 1ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 50 to 100ppm
What does this mean?
Ammonia: 0.5 to 1ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 50 to 100ppm
What does this mean?
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
This is showing you most likely near the start of your cycle. There is a pattern to fishless cycling- it starts with ammonia, which then starts to drop. As it does, nitrite shows and starts to rise. The ammonia comes down long before nitrite. Normally to know where things stand, one then looks at the progression of test results over time.
Being able to see the progressions is one of the strong points of hobby tests kits, which are not always that accurate. The single biggest cause of cycling issues tends to be too much nitrite. This is due to two causes, one of which is the test kits which do not read as high as the nitrite should get. But if you get nitrite levels above a certain point, it starts to kill a cycle. The cause of nitrites getting too high is dosing too much ammonia and/or dosing it too often.
What I see from your results is the following. The plants are clearly helping with ammonia since the ammonia level droppe faster than normal. However, there are not enough plants to take care of it all. This we know because it isn't all gone and because there are nitrites. You need to convert ammonia to nitrite for that to be the case. The nitrate kit is the least useful of the bunch. Unless you tested your tap for them first, you can't be certain of the level now. More important is how the kit works, it is hard to test for nitrate, so what kits actually do it to convert nitrate back to nitrite and read that. Not a huge problem unless you also have nitrite in the water. And then there is the whole shake the bottle issues which can make results vary.
The next thing I would note is dose and test means you dose in response to test results. The method makes it easy to prevent all three nitrogen parameters from getting too high. Ammonia is simple- you are measuring it. But, on your nitrite kit the danger level would be at about 16.5 ppm. The kit stops at 5 ppm. So you can see the difficulty.
As noted, doing a cycle with plants in, you do it just as if there were no plants. You dose and test and then react to the numbers. But with plants, nitrites are normally less of a concern. The plants help hold down the ammonia which in turn holds down the nitrite. Where I am going with all this is to say you do not need to keep topping up ammonia. The bacteria do not starve quickly, so they do not need "food" daily.
The one difference in doing a planted cycle is that the pattern I mentioned gets altered some. In a tank with no ammonia it takes a number of days to see any change in ammonia while the bacteria are starting to build up and get to work. But in a tank with plants, the ammonia starts to drop almost immediately. Next, because there is less ammonia going through nitrification, the level of nitrites will not get anywhere near as high. Finally, because plants can also consume nitrate, the level of these may stay very low or may even be 0.
What I suggest is you read the Cycling Your First Tank Article http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/ but do so keeping in mind the effect of having the plants. As you progress in your cycle, you should be able to know what is going on by taking both factors into account. For now I would not add more ammonia until you see some things relative to nitrite. You want to see the numbers move one way or the other other. If they are moving up, then do not add more ammonia until nitrite hits 2 ppm or above and ammonia is under about .5 ppm. Add your 3 ppm dose and then wait again. If the nitrites move sideways and then drop, you are in better shape and closer to the end of things.
In that case you can give the tank more ammonia sooner. You will be nearing what I refer to as the cycling test dose- here you add the 3 ppm dose to the tank, wait overnight (max 24 hours) and test. If cycled you get 0/0 readings for ammonia and nitrite. If not wait for both numbers to approach zero and try the same thing again.
The thing about cycling with plants is the results can be more variable. We can have a good idea of what to expect when its just ammonia nitrite and bacteria. But when plants get added to the mix it gets less predictable because of different plant loads and different plants being involved.
The most helpful plants, in terms of processing ammonia are the fastest growers. This usually encompasses the stem plants and many of the floaters as well. They are nutrient hogs and tend to suck ammonia up pretty fast
Keep asking questions along the way if you are unsure. It is a lot easier to add ammonia to a tank than to get it back out About the only mistake one can make in a fishless cycle is to overdose ammonia. This can stall or stop it. Under dosing only slows it or makes it a bit less cycled in terms of fish load. But if a tank can process 3 ppm ammonia to nitrate (or to close to nothing if planted) in under a day, then that tank is ready for fish to be fully stocked to an average level.
Being able to see the progressions is one of the strong points of hobby tests kits, which are not always that accurate. The single biggest cause of cycling issues tends to be too much nitrite. This is due to two causes, one of which is the test kits which do not read as high as the nitrite should get. But if you get nitrite levels above a certain point, it starts to kill a cycle. The cause of nitrites getting too high is dosing too much ammonia and/or dosing it too often.
What I see from your results is the following. The plants are clearly helping with ammonia since the ammonia level droppe faster than normal. However, there are not enough plants to take care of it all. This we know because it isn't all gone and because there are nitrites. You need to convert ammonia to nitrite for that to be the case. The nitrate kit is the least useful of the bunch. Unless you tested your tap for them first, you can't be certain of the level now. More important is how the kit works, it is hard to test for nitrate, so what kits actually do it to convert nitrate back to nitrite and read that. Not a huge problem unless you also have nitrite in the water. And then there is the whole shake the bottle issues which can make results vary.
The next thing I would note is dose and test means you dose in response to test results. The method makes it easy to prevent all three nitrogen parameters from getting too high. Ammonia is simple- you are measuring it. But, on your nitrite kit the danger level would be at about 16.5 ppm. The kit stops at 5 ppm. So you can see the difficulty.
As noted, doing a cycle with plants in, you do it just as if there were no plants. You dose and test and then react to the numbers. But with plants, nitrites are normally less of a concern. The plants help hold down the ammonia which in turn holds down the nitrite. Where I am going with all this is to say you do not need to keep topping up ammonia. The bacteria do not starve quickly, so they do not need "food" daily.
The one difference in doing a planted cycle is that the pattern I mentioned gets altered some. In a tank with no ammonia it takes a number of days to see any change in ammonia while the bacteria are starting to build up and get to work. But in a tank with plants, the ammonia starts to drop almost immediately. Next, because there is less ammonia going through nitrification, the level of nitrites will not get anywhere near as high. Finally, because plants can also consume nitrate, the level of these may stay very low or may even be 0.
What I suggest is you read the Cycling Your First Tank Article http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/ but do so keeping in mind the effect of having the plants. As you progress in your cycle, you should be able to know what is going on by taking both factors into account. For now I would not add more ammonia until you see some things relative to nitrite. You want to see the numbers move one way or the other other. If they are moving up, then do not add more ammonia until nitrite hits 2 ppm or above and ammonia is under about .5 ppm. Add your 3 ppm dose and then wait again. If the nitrites move sideways and then drop, you are in better shape and closer to the end of things.In that case you can give the tank more ammonia sooner. You will be nearing what I refer to as the cycling test dose- here you add the 3 ppm dose to the tank, wait overnight (max 24 hours) and test. If cycled you get 0/0 readings for ammonia and nitrite. If not wait for both numbers to approach zero and try the same thing again.
The thing about cycling with plants is the results can be more variable. We can have a good idea of what to expect when its just ammonia nitrite and bacteria. But when plants get added to the mix it gets less predictable because of different plant loads and different plants being involved.
The most helpful plants, in terms of processing ammonia are the fastest growers. This usually encompasses the stem plants and many of the floaters as well. They are nutrient hogs and tend to suck ammonia up pretty fast
Keep asking questions along the way if you are unsure. It is a lot easier to add ammonia to a tank than to get it back out
About the only mistake one can make in a fishless cycle is to overdose ammonia. This can stall or stop it. Under dosing only slows it or makes it a bit less cycled in terms of fish load. But if a tank can process 3 ppm ammonia to nitrate (or to close to nothing if planted) in under a day, then that tank is ready for fish to be fully stocked to an average level.Hey TwoTankAmin, thanks for your detailed reply, it was very useful and a good read
I see that we have a new cycling guide, so I will read that one as soon as I get a chance.
Once I get home today, I will test the nitrates in my tap water and then take that into consideration for my next test results. I just wasn't expecting my ammonia to start dropping so soon, and to see nitrites appear so soon. I was under the impression it would take around 2 weeks for that to happen!
So I should only dose more ammonia now when ammonia < 0.5ppm and nitrite > 2ppm?
Also, you're saying plants eat nitrite as well? Won't that make it harder to know when bacteria are present?
Thank you very much again for your well-structured explanation
EDIT: I've now read the link you posted, and I have just realised the nitrite test I have is nitrite-nitrogen, which you say is incorrect. I've now ordered the API NO2- test kit. Thanks for all your help. By the way, I'm using the salifert nitrate test kit, do you know if that one has any problems? I was advised by a user here in the forums to get the salifert test kits, and now I seem to be replacing them all I've pretty much thrown like 20£ in the trash.
I see that we have a new cycling guide, so I will read that one as soon as I get a chance.
Once I get home today, I will test the nitrates in my tap water and then take that into consideration for my next test results. I just wasn't expecting my ammonia to start dropping so soon, and to see nitrites appear so soon. I was under the impression it would take around 2 weeks for that to happen!
So I should only dose more ammonia now when ammonia < 0.5ppm and nitrite > 2ppm?
Also, you're saying plants eat nitrite as well? Won't that make it harder to know when bacteria are present?
Thank you very much again for your well-structured explanation
EDIT: I've now read the link you posted, and I have just realised the nitrite test I have is nitrite-nitrogen, which you say is incorrect. I've now ordered the API NO2- test kit. Thanks for all your help. By the way, I'm using the salifert nitrate test kit, do you know if that one has any problems? I was advised by a user here in the forums to get the salifert test kits, and now I seem to be replacing them all
I've pretty much thrown like 20£ in the trash.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
No it is not incorrect at all. it is just a different scale. You can use that test but you must adjust the numbers to be on the same scale as used by the API kits and which I used in the article. The two different scales measure different things.
The -nitrogen )(aka -n) scale is looking only at the things directly relating the the nitrogen present. But there is mote than nitrogen there is the H (hydrogen) in ammonia and the O (oxygen) in nitrite and nitrate. The API kits also measure the ions for the H and O while the kit you mentioned is limited to N (nitrogen). Think of it as the difference between miles and kilometers. Both are good and accurate scales as long as we know which one is being used with a given number.
There are conversion factors for all of these so one can convert the results on one scale to the other.
For example, the conversion for nitrite is as follows: Nitrite-n x 3.284 = Nitrite No2-. The first type reading you would get on the test kit you said you have. If you then test with an API, kit it should give you a reading that is 3.284 times what your present kits showed.
You actually have a better kit because the danger level for nitrite during a cycle is 5 ppm on your kit but 16.5 ppm on an API kit. The API kit only goes up to 5.
The fact that there are two scales and that often the difference isn't noted or that a writer fails to specify is the cause for a lot of mistaken info in the hobby. The cycling article was specifically written for folks using the API kits. All of the levels are expressed using the scale common on API and most other hobby kits. That was done to avoid confusion. However, now and then folks like you actually have a kit that rads in -nitrogen.
If you are not certain about things because I did a poor job of explaining, you can shoot me a PM with Qs. I am usually pretty good about replying.
Finally, plants eat ammonia and nitrate. I do not believe they are real big on consuming nitrite.
The -nitrogen )(aka -n) scale is looking only at the things directly relating the the nitrogen present. But there is mote than nitrogen there is the H (hydrogen) in ammonia and the O (oxygen) in nitrite and nitrate. The API kits also measure the ions for the H and O while the kit you mentioned is limited to N (nitrogen). Think of it as the difference between miles and kilometers. Both are good and accurate scales as long as we know which one is being used with a given number.
There are conversion factors for all of these so one can convert the results on one scale to the other.
For example, the conversion for nitrite is as follows: Nitrite-n x 3.284 = Nitrite No2-. The first type reading you would get on the test kit you said you have. If you then test with an API, kit it should give you a reading that is 3.284 times what your present kits showed.
You actually have a better kit because the danger level for nitrite during a cycle is 5 ppm on your kit but 16.5 ppm on an API kit. The API kit only goes up to 5.
The fact that there are two scales and that often the difference isn't noted or that a writer fails to specify is the cause for a lot of mistaken info in the hobby. The cycling article was specifically written for folks using the API kits. All of the levels are expressed using the scale common on API and most other hobby kits. That was done to avoid confusion. However, now and then folks like you actually have a kit that rads in -nitrogen.
If you are not certain about things because I did a poor job of explaining, you can shoot me a PM with Qs. I am usually pretty good about replying.
Finally, plants eat ammonia and nitrate. I do not believe they are real big on consuming nitrite.
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