Question About New Fish Tank And Fish-Less Cycle

[FilipeB]

Hello everyone! This is my first post and also my first aquarium, so very excited and at the same time quite terrified of all the things needed to be done in order for the fish to live safely and happily.
 
So, first off, I order a Juwel Vision 260 as my tank. This isn't really for me, though I do plan to be very involved with it. It's something I bought for my dad, since I know he loves aquariums. We had one before we had to move to the UK and he couldn't bring it along and I know he's always wanted another one, so I'm now getting him one as a surprise. So he might know the answers to these questions, or he might not, but as you can imagine, I can't really ask him directly, so I figured I'd just ask here and that way I'll also be in a better position to help him monitor the aquarium and the fish

 
So, I hear that the "add and wait" method is the way to go? I've only actually heard that you needed to do a fishless cycle after I ordered the aquarium, I actually had no idea, so I guess I dodged quite the bullet there
 
If the answer to the previous question is "yes", then I will be following this guide.But I still have some questions:
 
a) When do I do the decor for the tank? Before or after the fish-less cycle?
b) I'm thinking of using live plants for the aquarium, will that affect the cycle in any way?
c) I read that after the cycle is completed, the water and the aquarium glass will be dirty. When can I clean this? Or by cleaning will I be killing all the bacteria I just grew?
d) I read that the pH level is also important, but how do I maintain a steady pH? I read that it should never fall below 6 and should be around 8 for optimal performance.
e) When the cycle is finished, can I add any number of fish to the aquarium? Or does it need to be gradual? If so, how gradual is "gradual"?
 
 
 
I'd also like to ask some questions about just normally keeping a tank:
 
f) How often should one clean an aquarium this big? What's the best way to do it?
g) I read something about water hardiness, but I don't understand what this is, can anyone explain?
h) Once the cycle is done, should I still be verifying the water every day, or just once a week or whatever? What should I be looking for (eg. 0 amonia, 0 nitrates and nitrites and pH 8)?
 
 
 
Thanks in advance for any help you might give. I know this is quite a lot of questions, and it must annoy people that every new guy comes around asking probably the same questions over and over again, but I also found that searching the web you will find several different answers for the same question and thus I never know which one to trust, so I'd rather ask someone and get an answer that I can trust.

 
 
P.S. I don't know if it helps, but my I believe my dad will want to do a fresh water aquarium, just like the one we used to have previously (we had lots of neon's if that's any indication of the water temperature).
 
P.P.S. It's a pain that we'll have to wait a month or more before we can actually put fish in it, but I do want to do things right! But I saw a pinned thread about people donating media (I'm still a bit unsure of what this is) to help speed up the process. Is this something worth looking into or is it just for more advanced fish-keepers?
 
 
Many thanks!
 
 
 
Edit: Is there any particular test kit I should be looking for? I hear good things about API test kits, but there are so many I don't know which one people are referring to.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

to the forum

I'll try to answer as many questions as I can....

The juwel 260 is a great sized tank to get, just as long as you're sure that your dad will have the time to do all the maintenance required.

The add and wait is the best, you do however only need to add 2-3ppm of ammonia, it's good that you've decided to go fishless.

You can add the decor whenever you want, some of the bacteria will grow on your decor so that'll help a bit.

It is possible that the live plants will effect the cycle, it all depends on how many live plants are used. The plants will take up some of the ammonia and nitrate which would be the only way it would effect it.

As long as you don't use any chemicals, it shouldn't kill any bacteria. Just make sure to use dechlorinater whenever you're adding water to the tank. I'd suspect that all you'd need to clean the tank would be an algae scraper which are pretty harmless.

As long as there's nothing that'd affect the pH in the tank, the pH should remain steady. The pH reading may change a little bit from the tap water to the tank water, this would be either because something in the tank is affecting the pH, or because your tap water has carbon dioxide in it which changes the pH. (Example: my tap pH is 7.8 and my tank pH is 8.0, over about 24 hours it changes)

One of the reasons of doing a fishless cycle is that you can add pretty much all your fish at once because by cycling it, you have created a colony of bacteria that would be able to handle your stocking levels, plus some more. You just have to keep an eye on the ammonia/nitrite levels to make sure that neither of them spike when you add some fish.


You want to change some of the water in the tank weekly and change about 20-50% (depending on stock levels), just make sure to use dechlorinater.
You can also siphon the gravel/sand about every 2-4 weeks or even longer.
I personally wash my filter media (the sponge) about every month, I just give it a quick slosh in some of my used tank water. Just make sure to use used tank water and to be careful with the filter media, you don't want to kill off any of the beneficial bacteria!

I test my water once every week, unless I see a problem where I test everyday. You should be testing for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH (pH isn't as important as the others, however you need to monitor it incase it spikes or crashs)


You can get filter media from established tanks and put that in your filter. You can safely take about 1/4 of the media from the established tank. Just make sure to keep the filter media wet and away from chlorine.
Using established filter media speeds the cycling process up quite a lot.


It is annoying to have to wait so long before adding fish, but, trust me, it's worth it to know that at the end, you'll have a happy, healthy aquarium to watch. Patience is just the key.




Hope that helps

 

[the_lock_man]

a. Personal preference, but I have always fishless cycled a completely empty tank (except for the water!!). Once I have established the cycle, I empty the tank totally, then put in the substrate and decor. But if you want to put the decor in first, then do so.
b. It will, because the plants will use the ammonia as a nitrogen fertiliser. Best leave them until after.
c. You won't be destroying the bacteria at all. Clean it just with a cleaning pad, no soap or whatever. You would also change as much of the water as you possibly could.
d. You read correctly. Use bicarbonate of soda to increase the pH if necessary, and keep monitoring pH when you are also monitoring ammonia and nitrite, to ensure that the pH doesn't crash.
e. One of the advantages of a fishless cycle is that the tank can be fully stocked in one go.
 
One thing to point out is that our current fishless cycle instructions are a little out of date. When you follow that article, don't dose to 5ppm, dose to 3ppm, and in the second stage (nitrite spike) only dose to 2ppm.
 
f. Weekly clean and water changes are best. Change at least 30% of the water, more if you fancy it.
g. Water hardness is the amouint of dissolved minerals. Often a high pH indicates a high KH (carbonate hardness, the amount of carbonate minerals dissolved) but it's not necessarily so. If you live in an area where your kettle needs descaling on a regular basis, your water is hard.
h. Once the cycle is done, and you have fish in there, I recommend testing once a week, just before a water change. You shiuld be looking for 0ppm ammonia and nitrite, and around 20ppm nitrate above what the level in your tapwater is.
 
Most people recommend that API master test kit, but be warned that the nitrate kit often gives false zeros, as the 2nd bottle needs an almighty shake to get the reagents mixed together. Also the ammonia test has an issue where it is difficult to distinguish between 0ppm and 0.25ppm. This is why I use the Salifert range, although I also recommend the Nutrafin (but the master kit is very expensive).

 

[FilipeB]

First of all, thank you for your answers

 
Between me and my dad I'm sure we'll find the time to take care of the tank (like I said, I do plan to be very much involved too!).
 
Ok, so from what I understand after I do the cycle I can fully empty the tank from water and clean it and decor it then? Obviously it couldn't take more than a few hours otherwise the bacteria could die.
 
I will be sure to leave the plants off the plans until the cycle is completed.
 
Ok, thanks  for the tip, I will follow your 3ppm and 2ppm measurements

 
By the way, when you saw that I need to remove 50% of the water, I don't really need to take the fish out of the tank do I? I'd just take out 50% of the water and then refill it whilst all the fish are in there?
 
Ah, thanks for that info about water hardiness. I do live in an area where there's a big need for descaling (Swindon if you know it) so I'm guessing it's going to be "hard" water. I hope there'll still be a good selection of fish that can handle hard water.
 
 
Hmm, I have to check some stores and I'll see what master test kits they have, but the API one does seem the best money for value, specially since I'm a little tight on money after buying such a big tank.
 
 
So I could also ask the fish store to give me a used media filter then? And that would require me to just open up my filter and exchange the sponge?
 
One thing I didn't quite understand about the de-chlorinated water: do I need to use a dechlorinater whilst doing the fishless cycle as well?
 
darn, looks like I need to buy some more materials. So far I need to still buy the master test kit, amonia, dropper, a dechlorinater, a algae scrapper and a syphon.
 
 
Sorry about all the newbie questions, but since we are talking about living beings I would like to be sure of what I'm doing

 
 
P.S. If we wanted to make our water "softer" could we just put tap water into a bucket and add something to it to make it softer and then put it on the tank?
 
P.P.S. I don't understand how using old tank water will clean the media filter?
 
 
Many thanks again

 

[the_lock_man]

Answering each question bit by bit again
 
When doing partial water changes, you leave the fish in the tank.
 
Most of our fish are mass-bred, rather than wild-caught, so many fish aren't too fussy on the water hardness. I don't actually have any "hardwater" fish in my tanks at all, yet I still have very hardwater (I'm in Portsmouth). There are some exceptions, discus and german blue rams being the obvious ones, but the tetras, rasboras, barbs, most cichlids, cories, etc., do well in hardwater.
 
The Salifert range of tests (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH) are sold individually, those 4 together come to about £30 in Maidenhead Aquatics, which isn't a huge amount more than the API Master kit, which has some tests you won't use that often (GH and KH for instance).
 
You are right about the mature filter media.
 
Yes, you do need to use dechlorinated water when cycling. Chlorine is used to kill the bacteria that would give us gastroenteritis, and will also kill the beneficial bacteria we want to grow in our filters, when they are newly established.
 
Ammonia is available in Homebase - it is in the Household aisle, in the cleaning section.
 
Generally, we don't recommend trying to alter the chemistry of your tap water, because it can turn round and bite you. Fish can't tolerate wild swings in pH, this often happens when people try to use the pH altering chemicals that the LFSs sell. In view of my observations above about the suitability of fish, I definitely suggest leaving this well alone. You could potentially mix RO water (available from your LFS) into tapwater, to partly soften it, or use 100% RO water, but you would need to add some minerals back in, otherwise the fish suffer.
 
When you clean your filters, just swish it in old tap water, give it a gentle squeeze, just to get rid of the gunk. THe point is not to use new tapwater, as again, this will kill newly established bacteria.
 
And please don't apologise about the questions. We were all new to the hobby at one stage, and not a single one of us has never made a mistake. Ask all the questions you like, and hopefully we can help you minimise the mistakes you will undoubtedly make. Welcome to the hobby, and welcome to TFF!

 

[FilipeB]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions
 
Ok, that makes sense. I will most likely just ask in-store when I do set out to buy some fish, if they'll be okay with my PH or not. I'm not particularly thinking of any fancy fish so should be ok!
 
I was looking into those salifert individual packages and they cost 24 pounds together, so that's a good price as well, but something captured my attention. The pH test states "Sufficient for 50 tests - For marine water only!", whilst all the other ones only state "Sufficient for 50 tests", so I'm thinking the pH one is not the one I'm looking for? It's the only pH test from that brand on the store I'm looking at. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links in this forum, so I'll just say that I'm looking at swellUK store.
 
I will speak to the store to see if I can get any mature filter from them. Is there any chance a filter will come with more bacteria than necessary? As in, non-beneficial bacteria.
 
Thanks for the ammonia tip, I will be sure to look in that section of the store.
 
Yeah I don't think I'll be fiddling with the hardiness of the water, since you say most fish will be okay with it.
 
Ok, thanks for clearing up that bit about cleaning the filter.
 
 
Thanks the_lock_man

 

[the_lock_man]

Apologies, my bad, the pH is saltwater only.
 
Your best bet when you are considering stocking, is to make a note of the species that interest you, post them on the forum with your tank size, and loads of us will give you the heads-up on what works, what doesn't, and maybe some alternative suggestions. Many LFS staff aren't too knowledgeable about this kind of stuff.

 

[FilipeB]

Oh ok. On that same store I can also find some tetra test kits. Are those just as good as the salifert ones?
 
I will definitely come post on this forum when I have my tank ready and have some idea of what fish to put in there. Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[greenmumma141]

Apologies, my bad, the pH is saltwater only.
 
Your best bet when you are considering stocking, is to make a note of the species that interest you, post them on the forum with your tank size, and loads of us will give you the heads-up on what works, what doesn't, and maybe some alternative suggestions. Many LFS staff aren't too knowledgeable about this kind of stuff.

 
 
Best tip ever! Don't follow 98% of fish shop employee's advice, sad but true. 
 
Congrats on such a big tank, and kudos to you for starting it off the right way

 

[the_lock_man]

Oh ok. On that same store I can also find some tetra test kits. Are those just as good as the salifert ones?
 
I will definitely come post on this forum when I have my tank ready and have some idea of what fish to put in there. Thanks for the heads-up!

 
I've never used Tetra tests, so I don't know.

 

[FilipeB]

Hmm, it's cool. I can just get the 3 tests from salifert and then the one for pH from tetra. I will google the brands though and then I'll make my call.
 
My tank won't be here until next friday, the 5th, so I still have some time.
 
I just remembered something else I wanted to ask: What do I need in terms of lighting when it comes to the cycling process? I know turning up the heat helps bacteria grow, but do I also need to have the lights on, or it won't matter? If it doesn't matter I'll just leave them always off to save power (every little bit helps!).
 
And thanks greenmumma141

 
Edit: Sorry! Another thing I wanted to ask and forgot: if I can get the people from the fish store to give me one mature filter, what does that mean for my cycling? Does that mean I skip over a lot of steps, or do I still do everything the same? I'm just asking because I don't know if I would just have to monitor values and make sure it can handle ammonia and nitrites every 12h.
 
And when I'm doing/starting the cycling, should I be testing the water every single day, or is it better to save some tests and only start doing it every other day?

 

[Blondielovesfish]

If you can get some mature media from your LFS then that will speed up your cycle. It is best to still cycle your tank, it will just take a lot less time to cycle it since some of bacteria will already be there.
 
Most people don't have their lights on while they're cycling, the reason being that with all the ammonia being added, algae blooms almost always happen, and, trust me, they aren't good. It's not that they affect the tank, they just look terrible. For this reason it's better to not have the lights on, as well as to save power.
 
For the first week, test on the 6th or 7th day, the ammonia isn't likely to have gone by then so you might as well save your tests. 
When you start seeing your ammonia drop, you can test everyday or every second day. You just need to know when to add more ammonia (when the ammonia reading is 0ppm). 
When you start seeing the Ammonia drop, begin testing for Nitrite. Do the same for when you start seeing Nitrite drop (after the nitrite spike which you'll have), start testing for Nitrate.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I do not agree with leaving the plants out. Because plants consume ammonia, they reduce the amount of bacteria you need to have a tank fully cycled. I have always cycled with plants in the tanks and have not had green water once.
 
The serious plant folks who are heavily planting laugh at cycling. the just start adding fish.
 
But there are a few other reasons for adding the plants at the outset- the cycling will take less time for one. The fewer bacteria one needs to culture, the less time it takes to get to that point. By reducing the ammonia load some with plants, less bacteria are needed to handle whats left, so it takes less time to get to that number. Second, live plants usually have bacteria on them and/or their roots, so they also provide some seeding for the new tank. Third, they save you from having to grow more bacteria than your tank will need once planted. If you do things as lock suggested above, you work to get bacteria you don't need because after he plants his tank the total amount of bacteria in his tank will shrink over time because there will be less food for them. The plants will be eating their lunch to some extent.
 
As for lights, unless you are planting a tank, leave them off. The bacteria are somewhat photosensitive and in an unplanted tank the bacteria that will be living outside of the filter would prefer no light at the outset. Even with most plants you can leave the lights off for the first couple of days to no ill effect if you want.
 
Finally, when I planted and cycled, I preferred to plant the tank and then wait a week or so to let the plants settle in before starting the cycle part. I also suggest if one plants beyond just a couple of plants, that they test ammonia more often during the early cycling phase. As noted above, a plant in cycle should move faster so more frequent testing helps. Sometimes it can surprise you how fast things go.

 

[FilipeB]

Oh, I thought having plants would decrease the bacteria growth rate because like you said, they eat their food. But I can see that it would help if they came with bacteria already on the plants. Hmmm, I'm thinking I'll place the plants only then (need to put substrate as well I assume?) but not any other decor and will do that after the tank is cycled. Because I was thinking of removing everything from the tank once it is cycled, cleaning the glass and arranging all the decor and then refilling it with water.
 
Will I need to think a lot ahead because of the plants? I mean, will the plants I get depend on the fish I'll get or something like that? Because the aquarium should be here on friday and I could really use having everything set up then. I wish I could just go to the store and have my dad pick a few plants and come home with them, and not having to think about fish and stuff. But obviously, I don't want to be careless either, so if anyone could shed some light on the matter, I'd appreciate it.
 
Also, is there any limit to how many plants you can / should have?
 
 
Many thanks!
 
 
Edit: Also, won't having plants stop me from being able to heat up the water to 90? And wouldn't that make bacteria grow less quickly?

 

[Blondielovesfish]

The plants in general don't really care about the temperature unless it's really hot or really cold, they should be fine temporarily. 
 
There's no limit to plants, however, you want to still provide some swimming space for the fish.
 
Be careful which plants you choose as some require high lighting and CO2. It might be best if you go into your LFS and find the plants you like the look of and then go home and research them.
 
Some fish do prefer particular plants, however, most fish will be happy with most plants. Some fish you can't have with most plants as they will uproot them or eat them, so this is something to consider when choosing your fish and/or plants. Most shy fish like floating plants so they could be something you might want in your tank.
 
Yes, you will need to have a substrate for plants, lot's of plants prefer sand but most are fine in gravel as well.