problems with cycling & some questions

[Vorpal]

I have had fish before, my dad kept fish, and I kept fish from the lates 80s until 2002.

have never cycled a fish tank before. When I was fish keeping previously, the general advice was to start with hardy fish, and add them gradually. Once I had a tank established, I used the water from one to start another.

I was generally successful doing that. I never tested the water, but used the fish to judge the quality of the environment.

So, when my son wanted a tank, I read up on the latest stuff before buying one. I purchased a used one, and set it up with fresh water, treated with AquaSafe, plants, sand, and couple of decorations.

The problem is, I live in Norway, and pure ammonia is not sold by fish/pet shops nor generally available. They sell the bacteria starters, and recommend a combined method (use the bacteria starters & run the tank for a couple weeks, then add fish gradually). So, I decided to use the traditional method, but I thought I would run it for a while, first, and keep an eye on the water quality.

Some of the substrate seems to have escaped and done the job for me, as I had a nitrite spike.

Some problems with this....

I started with some strips with multiple test on them & they clearly don't work very well, because I thought the water was okay (the test strips showed everything within an acceptable range), but I took a sample to the shop for them to test before we bought fish & they found high nitrites. So, we didn't buy fish They gave me various recommendations. One of them that I should not have followed (but unfortunately did) was to rinse off the filter in tap water. So, I guess I killed off my burgeoning bacteria colony.

Also, I found that our plants came with snails. So, I need to know, what now?

I have a tank with plants and snails and high nitrites. I did a 60% water change yesterday & that brought the nitirtes down, but not yet to an acceptable level. I was going to do another partial water change tomorrow.

Should I start over? Add one of those bacteria starters? Just do another 60% water change & see how the tank gets on? Do the snails help? Will they survive?

TIA

 

[Gruntle]

Testing strips are notoriously inaccurate. It may seem like a big expense, but you're better off with a liquid test kit (such as the API Master test kit).

The snails will help as they do create a small amount of ammonia, but I would say it's not likely that they will survive.

Unfortunately, like you, I live in a country where you cannot get ammonia. I do not have any advice for you on that front.

The live plants should help though. If you know someone with an established tank, you may be able to swap some of your filter media (sponges, ceramic rings, bio balls) with some of theirs to "seed" your tank.

Best of luck with it.

 

[Mrscmurray]

I know it's not generally recommended but you could try using food to cycle. Add the amount you would feed per day and keep testing consistently.

This method can take longer, and is certainly messier but it gives you an option that wouldn't harm fish.

As Gruntle said, you would fare better with a liquid test kit as these are much more accurate than the strips.

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[Vorpal]

Thanks, everyone. I've bought some bacteria to seed my filter, and test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH.

 

[Gruntle]

Fish food these days is designed not to exude ammonia, so all you're likely to end up with is a messy tank and a bacterial bloom.

If you can stand it, you could use a bit of raw seafood and let it rot. It will create ammonia, but there is very little you can do to control the concentration and it stinks.

Stick with the bacteria product - what brand did you get?

 

[Vorpal]

Stick with the bacteria product - what brand did you get?

Prodac.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have never heard of that product, but I wouldn't trust it on its own.

Does anyone you know have a tank? It doesn't have to be a close friend, just someone with an established tank. A donation of media from their filter and you will be better off than any bacteria in a bottle product.

Maybe ask your local fish store for a small scrap from their filter. It could be anything, floss, sponge, ceramic... anything. This will not only seed the filter, but offer you a established colony to start with, complete with biofilm.


The plants will help also as they will take up ammonia in the tank as well. The tricky part is getting ammonia in there without having to add fish... and that just may not be possible.

So, start with just a few fish and monitor VERY closely. Get a liquid test kit and test for ammonia. The fact that the nitrite has already shown up is a good sign that you already have some ammonia oxidizing bacteria... where the ammonia came from, that must have been from the substrate.

 

[StevenF]

An alternative to regular ammonia is Ammonia Chloride its a chemical often sold as a fertilizer to farmers. you might find it in store specifically for farmers or a hydroponics shop. You might also find ammonia sulfate but i know of no one that has cycled a tank with that. Ammonia chloride It is also sold for aquarium and you might find it online:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006MP4QG6/?tag=ff0d01-20

The key today to finding pure ammonia is to look for it from chemical supply companies or companies that deal with small quantities of chemicals. For example Hanna instruments ( a water testing supply company):
http://hannainst.com/products/solut...03-ammonia-standard-1000-mg-l-ppm-500-ml.html
That may be more ammonia then you need but it is an example of what is out there. In this case it is sold a a calibration solution for airborne ammonia sensors. I live in the US so I don't know what the rule and import restrictions are for youso some of the links sources I have linked to may not be able to help you. But Hanna instruments is a US based international company so they probably can ship to you but I don't know the cost.

While you are at there website look at there ammonia checker:
http://hannainst.com/products/checker-colorimeters/parameter/ammonia.html
It works like a regular test kit but uses an electronic device to measure the value. Great for those that are color blind and far more accurate than regular tests. Although it is about double the cost of regular Aquarium test kits.

Fish food these days is designed not to exude ammonia, so all you're likely to end up with is a messy tank and a bacterial bloom.

All plant and meat material contains nitrogen. It is an essential element of life. All food when it rots will produce ammonia. Although the amounts created will depend on the type of food. Meats are probably the strongest source of ammonia. Also Food contains all the elements Bacteria need to grow unlike Distilled water and ammonia ( which will not cycle). So basically there is no way for a food distributer to make food that will not produce ammonia although how much you get is impossible to predict. and correctly dosing the tank is impossible. But if by chance you get it right the tank may cycle very quickly.

Another easily available source is Urine Although I don't know anyone that has used it. The Key source of ammonia in it is the chemical Urea which is also used as a fertilizer and may be available. It is safe to handle and when it breaks down creates ammonia. it Is also sold as Add Blue in automative stores. It is used in pollution control systems on some Diesel cars.
http://www.loudwolf.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=84

A final approach is to put plants in the tank (preferably fast growing beginners plants and fertilize the water with a complete fertilizer like Seachem Flourish comprehensive (it is one of the few that contains all the elements plants need. Verify your plants are growing and add live shrimp or snails (Nerite snails are a good choice since they will not reproduce in a fresh water aquarium). As long as they plants are growing they will consume ammonia and nitrite. Monitor the tank and run it like a regular tank with weekly water change and fertilization and occasional feeding. It that goes well after a couple weeks you could add a small number of fish and then gradually work up to a higher level.

 

[thrujenseyes]

I found ammonia at a Tractor Supply Store.

Also when I was cycling I had a snail (that was a hitchhiker on some plants I'd purchased). I felt awful for him having to go thru the cycling process.
He was an assassin and he dug himself into the substrate and remained there throughout the cycle.
Once I was cycled he came out and enjoyed a happy full life

 

[Vorpal]

I started with high NO2. It was still high after a partial water change, though I did not write down any values.

On 17 Jan. I had
NO2 0,4 mg/l
NO3 12,5 mg/l
NH3 / NH4 0 mg/l
I added the Prodac to the filter and did no further water changes.
The snails have been active the last couple of days (we appear to have three of them)

Today, I tested again, and got
pH 7,5
NO2 <0,3 mg/l
NO3 12,5 mg/l
NH3 / NH4 0 mg/l

So I think that means the bacteria are doing their job?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That seems to show nothing of consequence happening. but, without having added any ammonia, there's no job for the bacteria to be doing.

 

[Vorpal]

I thought that in order to have very high Nitrites, I must have had ammonia? I was using test strips, not knowing that they were innacurate, so I assume that I just don't know what happened before I bought my test kits.

My aquarium has some muddy looking stuff in it that I think is substrate that escaped when I put the plants in. That's substrate made for aquarium plants, so I assume it has some nutrition or fertilizer in it, and that started the cycle.

Where else could the Nitrites have come from?

Edited to add:
The way I found out that test strips weren't accurate is because I had some water tested at a Pet Shop & they found very high nitrites. I then bought a Nitrite test kit & got the same result, but did not record the numbers. I bought the other test kits and the bacteria a few days later.

 

[flchamp89]

Test tap first to get a baseline.

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[eaglesaquarium]

As you point out, the substrate may have released some ammonia and started the cycle, but without an ongoing source of ammonia, the cycle stops, which is why your last two readings are virtually identical.

The cycling process gives the bacteria a continual supply of ammonia to be converted to nitrate. The bacteria could be why the nitrites are gone, but without adding more ammonia and having it converted, I wouldn't trust the bacteria alone.


Ammonium nitrate is another fertilizer that you might be able to find, which would help you cycle. It can be made into an explosive, so it may or may not be available.

 

[Vorpal]

Test tap first to get a baseline.

I did test the tap water. No nitrites registered.