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problem with nitrite levels

Delboy50

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Hi,

I have experience with previous tanks and have completed fishless on numerous occasions.

For some back ground I got a tank in 2019 and it was cycled and ready to populate when covid hit.
I ended putting it into storage and wrapped up for protection.

In September I took it back out of storage to get a tank running again.

I used DT Timms for the cycle following the instructions and some Seachem stability to speed up the process.

After 1 week the ammonia was disappearing after 24 hrs but the Nitrite levels were very high at 5.0 ppm on my test kit (API)

This continued for another week & i concluded the cycle had failed. I drained the tank completely and replaced the water.
I tested the water again and it was still showing nitrite at 5.0 ppm.

I repeated this again and the same result. After a third time the water was showing zero. Then 24 hrs later when I was going to
start the fishless cycle again it tested positive for nitrites at 5.0ppm.

I have no idea how the water has such toxicity. I am beginning to think the beechwood decor or the media content is now causing the issue.

I have a Biomaster 350 with carbon & ceramic biomaster rings covering biological, chemical & mechanical filtration.

Any thoughts for suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Derek
 
Hello, Derek!
This is very odd, which makes ask some Qs,
How are you testing your nitrite? Is there any nitrates ever present? (As if there is most of the time, the. nitrites will be way off) What kind of substrate is in the tank?
Are you testing all parameters correctly? What is nitrite out of tap water if yoou use tap? How many drops of Dr tims did you do? Was the BB or ammonia of dr tims? I used this method, and have done 2 main fishless cycles, so I thought I might try to help out!
Hopw this is of some assistance! Once I have a little more info then I might can help better :)
 
Hi

Thank you for your response.

First the tap water is good quality PH7 and no issues on the testing front Nitrite is Zero.

I am testing the Nitrite using a API freshwater test kit. Nitrite levels are showing the maximum on my test kit 5.0 ppm.
The Nitrate levels are also high 80 ppm. Substrate is mixed size small stones. On the testing I am following the instructions as specified in the
the manual. There is at this point zero Ammonia showing in the water.

The tanks is 200 litres which is about 52 US gallons. So 208 drops of DR Tims's.

I am thinking about taking out all the bogwood as it has been soaked in the toxic water. Also removing the carbon and Biomaster rings as I am not
sure if they will hold the toxic water levels.
 
Might be to many drops, from experiences I have had with dr tims if you do 5 drops then It will spike ammonia and nitrite. Isn't it 5 drops per 5 gallons? I cannot remember.
 
Hi

No further forward since my last post. 3 days ago I stopped dosing with DR Timms as the ammonia was disappearing within 24 hrs at 2ppm. The ammonia disappearing within 24hrs has been happening since week 1. The nitrites are still high in fact as high as my API kit can measure 5ppm. I added plants 2 days ago and the nitrate levels are between 10-20 ppm.

I am just into my 4th week now is it now better to stop dosing with ammonia? The reason I ask is as I don't see the nitrites falling and continuing to dose with ammonia will only increase/maintain the level at 5ppm. The Seachem Stability provided the necessary bacteria.

Will the nitrite fall if I stop dosing with ammonia? As there is obviously effective bacteria in the tank if there is 0 ammonia, nitrites & nitrates.

Thanks

Derek
 
Yes the nitrite will but it will take a few days. I would stop adding ammonia and see what happens.
 
The bacteria that process nitrites is different to the one that processes ammonia.

It seems that your tank doesn’t have the second one yet. The nitrates test can show results even when you only have nitrite.
If you can get an exact number for the nitrite (dilute with ratios of pure water until you get a reading to achieve this) it will show if your cycle has stalled. Also post the temperature and pH for complete information.
 
Hi,

I has been able to determine that the Nitrite level was about 15pmm. Thanks for the tip on adding more water to get a reading.

I have done a full tank drain tonight then let the filter run and tested a few hour later. So ammonia./nitrite/nitrates are now zero.

My water PH is 7.2 and the tank temperature 25c.

If all still zero tomorrow night i am going to start dosing with DR Timms again.

My question is as the first bacteria has developed in the tank I fully expect the ammonia dose to disappear in 24hrs.

I suspect the nitrites to climb again so if i keep dosing with ammonia the nitrites will naturally climb.

Is it best to do water changes is the nitrites go over 5ppm?

Also do I continue to keep dosing with ammonia daily as i suggested in the guide?

I never had trouble before doing a fishless cycle and the only thing I did different was adding Seachem Stability.


Thanks Derek
 
Great, it sounds like you are on the right track :thumbs:
Is this the guide you are following? If so, the nitrite shouldn't get so high as to stall the cycle.


I'm not sure about if Stability would have disrupted the process.
 
The problem is due to using stability.

The bacteria needed to handle ammonia and nitrite do not form spores. They reproduce by dividing. Stability is a bottle of spores. Tha co,bime with the info on SeaChem's page being mostly BS. Ther is a reason for this.

Note: I am quoting a couple of scientific papers below. You can skip them and just read what I wrote about them.

The most important bacteria we developed for cycling a tank are strains of Nitrospira. These were initially identified by Dr. Hovanec and associated scientists and revealed in this published, peer reviewed paper:

Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria
TIMOTHY A. HOVANEC, LANCE T. TAYLOR, ANDREW BLAKIS, AND EDWARD F. DELONG
Department of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology, University of California, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, California 93106,1 and Aquaria Inc., Moorpark, California 930212 Received 4 September 1997/Accepted 27 October 1997

Abstract
Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the a subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely
related to other members of the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the a subdivision of the class Proteobacteria (e.g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in these samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter
growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.
Pdf of the full paper: Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

However, this is not the end of the Nitrospira research which is why it is really the most important nacteria we colonize when we cycle a tank.
Daims, H., Lebedeva, E., Pjevac, P. et al. Complete nitrification by Nitrospira bacteria.
Nature 528, 504–509 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1038/nature16461

Abstract
Nitrification, the oxidation of ammonia via nitrite to nitrate, has always been considered to be a two-step process catalysed by chemolithoautotrophic microorganisms oxidizing either ammonia or nitrite. No known nitrifier carries out both steps, although complete nitrification should be energetically advantageous. This functional separation has puzzled microbiologists for a century. Here we report on the discovery and cultivation of a completely nitrifying bacterium from the genus Nitrospira, a globally distributed group of nitrite oxidizers. The genome of this chemolithoautotrophic organism encodes the pathways both for ammonia and nitrite oxidation, which are concomitantly activated during growth by ammonia oxidation to nitrate. Genes affiliated with the phylogenetically distinct ammonia monooxygenase and hydroxylamine dehydrogenase genes of Nitrospira are present in many environments and were retrieved on Nitrospira-contigs in new metagenomes from engineered systems. These findings fundamentally change our picture of nitrification and point to completely nitrifying Nitrospira as key components of nitrogen-cycling microbial communities
Red color above added by me. The full paper is available here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5152751/

The result of the Hovanec paper above was that Dr. Hovanec and his employer at the time - the Aquaria Inc. Group of companies, including Marineland Labs, shared a patent for the bacteria and the method for detecting and using them. Dr. Tim left Aquaria Inc. when it was acquired by the Global Pet Care division of Spectrum Brands which owns fish related Tetra, Marineland, Glo Fish, Instant Ocean and Omega One.

Spectrum transfered the responsibility for using the patent to Tetra who then created Safe Start and Safe Start+ which also contain the Nitrospira bacteria. No other company can use Nitrospira in their product as a result.

So, Stability is out in the cold for two reasons.

Why you have the problem with nitrite is explained by the info above. When we use either One and Only or Safe Start we are adding both the ammonia bacteria and the nitrite ones at the same time. What this means is that whatever amount of ammonia the bacteria are able to convert to nitrite, there are nitrite bacteria present which can convert that amount of nitrite to nitrate right away.

However, if we do a normal fishless cycle without and seeding of bacteria, the ammonia ones colonize first as we add ammonia to the tank. But for the nitrite ones to colonize there has to be nitrite. The Nitrospira reproduce more slowly then and ammonia only bacteria which is another reason why things need to wait for nitrite to become established when we can not seed the needed bacteria.

All of the above explain why you have elevated nitrite. Btw, when high enough, nitire is usually the cause of stalling a cycle. If we have more than 6.4 ppm of ammonia on an API test kit or more than 16.4 ppm of nitrite, it stalls the cycle. Also there is really no need to dose more than 3 ppm of ammonia to accomplish a fishless cycle.

Next, there are two scales used for testing for nitrogen compounds.

There are two major ways to describe the concentrations of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in water. The "nitrogen" weight of these molecules describes the weight of only the nitrogen atoms within them. On the other hand, the "ion" weight of these molecules describes the weight of the entire molecule.

For example, the term nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) refers to the weight of only the nitrogen atom within the nitrate molecule; as opposed to nitrate-ion (NO3), which describes the weight of the entire nitrate molecule. Note that a given nitrate-nitrogen value will always be lower than the associated nitrate-ion value. Conversion between the two forms is as simple as applying a constant..........

Scientific literature often uses the "nitrogen" form rather than the "ion" form to describe the concentration for these molecules.​

from https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php

This explains why on Dr. Hovenec's site when he states that ammonia or nitrite should not exceed 5 ppm for cycling, he is using the Nitrogen scale. The numbers I provided for these two things earlier converted them to the Total Ion Scale from the nitrogen scale as most hobby kits use the Total Ion scale.

So the above explains exactly why you have high nitrite after adding Stability. There are only spores in it and that means no true nitrifying bacteria and most certainly no Ntrospira. But SeaChem is not the only outfit selling a product which doesn't contain Nitrospira. But other companies use another nitrite ooxidizing bacteria called Nitrobacter wynogradsky. This is named after Sergio Wynogradsky who
made a number of important discoveries and is considered the father of sulfur microbiology. From studying sulfur and nitrogen dependent microbes, Winogradsky was able to deduce that they obtained energy from chemical reactions and used that energy to grow on carbon dioxide, a process called chemoautotrophy.

The problem is this nitrite oxidizing bacteria thrives on much higher nitrite concentrations than we have in our tanks. The bacteria are the major one for handling the really high nitrite levels in waste water treatment.

So you now know more than you asked for as to why you have high nitrite and why so few products sold for cycling tanks actually do so. But companies who make products for our hobby needed to come up with something could sell and could state if helped even if it did not really do so as well. At least the ones with the live nitrobacter in them do initially help some with nitrite. Bu, when a tank is finally cycled, the Nitrobacter are mostly gone having been replaced by the needed Nitrospira.

When we cycle a tank without using bottled bacteria, we are getting the nitrospira which exist in mature and which find their way into our tanks from our water supply or even from the air. The cultured ones can be patented but the ones in nature cannot be.
 
Hi

Thank you naughts for the guide.

Thank you tanktwoadmin for your detailed reply.

I was sold the Seachem Stability product and was informed by the agent it would cycle the tank in a week. So i am now aware it was complete nonsense.

I dosed the tank with ammonia this morning using the DR Timms method. The ammonia was zero when I checked 12hrs later.

Nitrites were between 2-4 i find it tricky to tell the difference.

I have ordered a nitrites only test kit that can measure up to 15pmm so I am hoping this will help in monitoring the level.

Just to clarify should I continue to dose with ammonia every time it drops to zero?

Is there a need to do water changes if the nitrite reaches a certain level?

Thanks

Derek
 
Just to clarify should I continue to dose with ammonia every time it drops to zero?
No. That will just make so much nitrite it'll stall the cycle. That's the old way of fishless cycling. TwoTankAmin wrote a method for us which, if followed to the letter, will not make enough nitrite to stall the cycle. With this method ammonia is only added when certain target readings have been achieved.
Naughts has already given you the method but here it is again

Since you are already part way through the cycle you don't need to start at the beginning. You have just done a big water change and now have zero ammonia and 2 to 4 ppm nitrite. Have you added any ammonia since that water change? If you haven't, add a 3 ppm dose of ammonia (that's enough ammonia to get a reading of 3 ppm half an hour later when it's had chance to mix in thoroughly). That's dose #2 in the method. If you have added ammonia, count it as dose #2.
Now test every 2 days. You need zero ammonia and zero ammonia again 2 days later - you need 2 zeros 2 days apart. Nitrite does not matter at this stage. Once you have those two zeros add ammonia, one third of the full dose (ie 1 ppm). This is the snack dose, dose #3, to feed the ammonia eaters.
Now test every day. You need to wait until ammonia is under 0.25 and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm. Then add another 3 ppm dose (dose #4)
Next day, if both ammonia and nitrite are zero, the cycle has finished. If one or both are not zero, test daily until ammonia is under 0.25 and nitrite under 1 ppm, and add a 3 ppm dose. If both are zero, the cycle has finished. If one or both are not zero, wait until ammonia is under 0.25 and nitrite under 1.0 ppm......and so on



Is there a need to do water changes if the nitrite reaches a certain level?
If nitrite ever reaches that critical 16.4 ppm, yes water change is needed to reduce the nitrite level or the cycle will stall. But if you switch to using the method in the link, nitrite can never get that high.
 
Hi,

I just wanted to say that my tank cycle is now complete.

So a sincere thank you for the advice given. I do have another query but i will do a new post.

Derek
 

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