Problem with my tank

[Tiara]

Hello all.
First let me share my tank details: The tank is around 70l RS-600 B series, with an internal filter. There are 7 rummy nose teras, 5 Pentazona barbs (3 female and 2 males), 2 Cherry barbs (2 females) and 1 little ancistrus.
All fish, except the ancistrus are around one year old and I have never had problems with the tank, the water parameters are fine, I measure them often.

10 days ago I notcied that one of the male Pentazona barbs wasn't eating, was hiding and its fins were kinda ragged. After an consultation I started using Omnipur A. On the next day the fish died. The other male fish also was kinda lethargic and its fins were also not in the best shape. On the 3rd day of medication it also died. The strange thing is that on the next day one of the female Cherry barbs, who was active, was eating and looked normal also died. On the 7th day- yesterday the little ancistrus died in matter of hours, again without visible symptoms. For now, the rummy nose tetras seem to be fine, active and happy.
Today I went to the vet and they said that I should start Bactopur, if Omnipur wasn't working.

Any ideas of what may have happened? I am in shock....

 

[Endlersendlers]

This isn’t very much information. “Water parameters are fine” doesn’t tell us much. The “fine” parameters can be appropriate for some species and not others so the numbers matter. Do you have any pictures of the fish that were affected before they died?

 

[Tiara]

This isn’t very much information. “Water parameters are fine” doesn’t tell us much. The “fine” parameters can be appropriate for some species and not others so the numbers matter. Do you have any pictures of the fish that were affected before they died?

Well my water is soft GH is around 4-7, the pH is about 6.8. . I usually change about 25% every week. After every water change I put Sera Aquatan and Toxivec I sadly didn't make any pictures of the dead fish Also these fishes are living for one year in this tank, I don't think they would have survived by now if the parameters were bad, but who knows...

 

[Ram419]

I assume when you say the water parameters are fine you mean there is zero ammonia and nitrites and the nitrates don't exceed 40ppm. Is this correct?

I'm a bit stumped with what would have caused the stock to die all of the sudden if the water parameters are fine.

 

[Tiara]

I assume when you say the water parameters are fine you mean there is zero ammonia and nitrites and the nitrates don't exceed 40ppm. Is this correct?

I'm a bit stumped with what would have caused the stock to die all of the sudden if the water parameters are fine.

Yes, the ammonia and nitrites are 0, the nitrates are around 20. I think that some parasite or bacteria may found its way into the tank or if their immune system has weakened cause of stress, but nothing has changed in their enviornment lately. I am observing the fishes whole day now and don't notice any changes in their appearance (no rotting fins, no white spots, all fish look fine).

 

[FranciscoB]

I am not familiar with these products - Sera Aquatan and Toxivec
I assume Aquatan is a water conditioner (dechlorinator).
What is Toxivec and why do you use it?

"After an consultation I started using Omnipur A"
"I went to the vet and they said that I should start Bactopur, if Omnipur wasn't working"
What was the guideline? What were you suppossed to be treating for? If one does not know, the best treatment is water changes and lots of good water and observation. Medicines for not reason never work and almost always result in problems.
Sorry cant help. Good luck!

 

[Essjay]

So we know that those products are, these quotes are from Sera's website -

Sera Aquatan is a water conditioner
"Water conditioner for fish friendly water rich in mineral substances
- immediately removes chlorine and chloramines
- binds heavy metals
- with mineral substances"

Sera Toxivec is also a water conditioner which does other things as well.
"First aid in aquariums
Immediately removes ichthyotoxic ammonia and nitrite
Binds heavy metals such as lead and copper
Removes chlorine and chloramines
Lowers nitrate levels and, correspondingly, algae growth"

Omnipur A is a treatment for a whole host of conditions ["bacterial infections (e.g. Columnaris, Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, mouth and fin rot), infections by fungi (e.g. Saprolegnia), single celled skin parasites (e.g. Ichthyobodo (Costia), Ichthyophthirius, Chilodonella, Trichodina) as well as skin and gill flukes"].
I hate to think what's in it if it treats all those.

Bactopur is mainly an antibacterial ["effective against bacterial infections of freshwater and marine fish – even in advanced stages. These include, for instance, Columnaris disease, fin rot, gill rot, Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacteria, inflammations and open ulcers as well as dropsy].



Toxivec sounds like Sera's version of Seachem Prime. But only one water conditioner is needed, either Aquatan or Toxivec not both. If the maims water is treated with chlorine, Aquatan is the better product. With chloramine, maybe Toxivec - but the bacteria and/or plants in the tank will deal with the ammonia made from the breakdown of chloramine, and there should be no nitrite in the tank anyway.

I would stop using either Aquatan or Toxivec, just use one of them. I would also stop using both treatments and see if water changes clear things.




How often do you do water changes, and how much do you change each time (the %)?

 

[Tiara]

I am not familiar with these products - Sera Aquatan and Toxivec
I assume Aquatan is a water conditioner (dechlorinator).
What is Toxivec and why do you use it?

"After an consultation I started using Omnipur A"
"I went to the vet and they said that I should start Bactopur, if Omnipur wasn't working"
What was the guideline? What were you suppossed to be treating for? If one does not know, the best treatment is water changes and lots of good water and observation. Medicines for not reason never work and almost always result in problems.
Sorry cant help. Good luck!

Hey! Well we started Omnipur, because it's a general cure and its said to help with lots of diseases.
And also if the water parameters are fine, so the problem seems to be somewhere else, don't you think?

 

[Essjay]

Not necessarily.

Can you tell us about your water change regime, please. So many times we see problems caused by infrequent and/or very small water changes. Ammonia and nitrite can be zero in a tank, and nitrate low if there are plants even when there is poor maintenance, but things we can't test for still build up in the water.
We need to eliminate this as a cause in your case, then we can take it further.

 

[Tiara]

So we know that those products are, these quotes are from Sera's website -

Sera Aquatan is a water conditioner
"Water conditioner for fish friendly water rich in mineral substances
- immediately removes chlorine and chloramines
- binds heavy metals
- with mineral substances"

Sera Toxivec is also a water conditioner which does other things as well.
"First aid in aquariums
Immediately removes ichthyotoxic ammonia and nitrite
Binds heavy metals such as lead and copper
Removes chlorine and chloramines
Lowers nitrate levels and, correspondingly, algae growth"

Omnipur A is a treatment for a whole host of conditions ["bacterial infections (e.g. Columnaris, Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, mouth and fin rot), infections by fungi (e.g. Saprolegnia), single celled skin parasites (e.g. Ichthyobodo (Costia), Ichthyophthirius, Chilodonella, Trichodina) as well as skin and gill flukes"].
I hate to think what's in it if it treats all those.

Bactopur is mainly an antibacterial ["effective against bacterial infections of freshwater and marine fish – even in advanced stages. These include, for instance, Columnaris disease, fin rot, gill rot, Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacteria, inflammations and open ulcers as well as dropsy].



Toxivec sounds like Sera's version of Seachem Prime. But only one water conditioner is needed, either Aquatan or Toxivec not both. If the maims water is treated with chlorine, Aquatan is the better product. With chloramine, maybe Toxivec - but the bacteria and/or plants in the tank will deal with the ammonia made from the breakdown of chloramine, and there should be no nitrite in the tank anyway.

I would stop using either Aquatan or Toxivec, just use one of them. I would also stop using both treatments and see if water changes clear things.




How often do you do water changes, and how much do you change each time (the %)?

Hey to you! Well I use Toxivec in order to get rid of the heavy metals, maybe it is not needed indeed.
I do change 25% of the water every week. Only 2-3 times I changed it on the 10th day, but as I mentioned- I had never had such a problem with dying fish before and the water is the same.
No clue what is happening.

 

[Tiara]

Not necessarily.

Can you tell us about your water change regime, please. So many times we see problems caused by infrequent and/or very small water changes. Ammonia and nitrite can be zero in a tank, and nitrate low if there are plants even when there is poor maintenance, but things we can't test for still build up in the water.
We need to eliminate this as a cause in your case, then we can take it further.

Hah Well I change 25% in the end of every week. and you are right, who knows what can build in the water without us knowing...

 

[Essjay]

That's fine, lack of water changes are not the problem in your case. So we need to think further.

Aquatan also binds metals. Using both means twice as much chlorine remover and 'metal binder' going into the tank than using just one of them.

 

[Tiara]

That's fine, lack of water changes are not the problem in your case. So we need to think further.

Aquatan also binds metals. Using both means twice as much chlorine remover and 'metal binder' going into the tank than using just one of them.

Well the only thing I can think of is that maybe the male barbs got their immunity low, and got sick (either from bacteria or parasite) and didn't eat (even for 3-4 days) and that's why they died.
But I can't figure out why the Cehrry barb and the little ancistrus died...they weren't stressed, were active, eating etc. And they died in matters of hours after the male barbs...
Let's just hope that atleast the other guys will survive. They all are fine so far.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Could there have been a contamination somehow? Aerosols being sprayed in the room? Perfume on the wrist or creams? Cleaning chemicals?

Anytime there's a suspected illness or the fish are unhappy, do a big water change. 50% or more. Always do a huge water change if there's a death in the tank especially if you don't know what's caused it

 

[Byron]

Agree with above members, look for possible sources.

Definitely stop all the chemicals, this is certainly going to affect fish detrimentally. A basic conditioner that deals with chlorine/chloramine (if in your water), and heavy metals is all you need. The less chemical substances going in the water the better for the fish. I would also increase the weekly water change to at least 50%, up to 60 or 65%. Provided the parameters--these are GH, KH, pH and temperature--are basically the same, water changes can never hurt and may help, especially if there is something in the tank water.

The GH/pH is fine for these fish. Ammonia and nitrite are good (0), nitrates at 20ppm is higher than the fish will appreciate. Is nitrate in the source/tap water you use? Test it alone to see. Or is nitrate occurring solely within the biological system of the aquarium? If the latter,you may be overfeeding, not ding sufficient water changes, or overstocking. Numbers for a 70 liter (18 gallon) are not high but there are stocking problems I'll come back to. Are there live plants? These help with keeping nitrate low because aquatic plants grab ammonia/ammonium faster than the nitrifying bacteria, and the plants do not produce nitrite then nitrate as a result. Floating plants are best, and easiest.

To the stocking, this could be part of the problem. These barbs and tetras are shoaling/schooling fish, which in freshwater species means they live in large groups and they need decent-sixed groups in an aquarium. The species here, ignoring tank size and everything else, should have 10-12 for each of the barb species, and 12-15, preferably 20, for the rummynose tetras. This tank is not sufficient length for the rummynose, assuming it is no longer than 24 inches/60 cm (?). When the barbs especially are in smaller numbers, they tend to become more aggressive. This may be physical attacks, fin nips, etc, or it may just be allomones and pheromones which are chemical signals other fish read. Numbers really do matter. At the very least, over time insufficient will add more and more stress, leading to the aggression. Another effect is a latency to feed. Have you noticed any interaction at all between the fish in each species, or with other species?