Poisoned?

[Uberhoust]

This is the second thread I have read where people have mentioned that adding wood to their aquarium may have been the source of poisoning. It is possible that something in the production of the wood for aquaria has changed, or someone is taking a shortcut. It could even be one of the suppliers changed the grit used to clean the wood, or something similar. The wood has to be harvested and processed in some fashion, I doubt the margins are large enough for a big manufacturer to do this so the wholesalers likely depend on a number of small outfits to supply the demand. Also there are a number of basic material shortages for industrial materials due to transport issues. This kind of environment leads to changes in how products are produced. It is possible that one supplier is doing something that causes issues with the wood being produced. Just a thought

 

[kribensis12]

You mean a TDS reading of 600 out of the tap??
If so, it's similar to my well water (which I don't use in my tanks)...."liquid rock", they call it...

Yes - I did not mean hardness. My master test kit does not include kH and gH, but I have a digital TDS monitor that consistently reads in the 500-600 range when the water comes out. Oddly enough, the city reports out water at a 7.4 pH and lower hardness -- so something about the piping is adjusting the chemistry.

I call it concrete. I do use it in my 20g, which houses some juvenile angels, danios and a few mollies. The seem to do just fine - but it is not suitable for my apistos.

 

[kribensis12]

This is the second thread I have read where people have mentioned that adding wood to their aquarium may have been the source of poisoning. It is possible that something in the production of the wood for aquaria has changed, or someone is taking a shortcut. It could even be one of the suppliers changed the grit used to clean the wood, or something similar. The wood has to be harvested and processed in some fashion, I doubt the margins are large enough for a big manufacturer to do this so the wholesalers likely depend on a number of small outfits to supply the demand. Also there are a number of basic material shortages for industrial materials due to transport issues. This kind of environment leads to changes in how products are produced. It is possible that one supplier is doing something that causes issues with the wood being produced. Just a thought

Thanks. I am at least a little suspicious, but I don't know why two pieces of wood would have two totally different situations - as the other tank is 100% fine.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Yes - I did not mean hardness. My master test kit does not include kH and gH, but I have a digital TDS monitor that consistently reads in the 500-600 range when the water comes out. Oddly enough, the city reports out water at a 7.4 pH and lower hardness -- so something about the piping is adjusting the chemistry.

I call it concrete. I do use it in my 20g, which houses some juvenile angels, danios and a few mollies. The seem to do just fine - but it is not suitable for my apistos.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I also have a TDS meter....dang, I didn't know ANY fish could live in that stuff, lol...I used to use it to pressure wash my house and garage, but it's so full of minerals it eventually clogs the nozzles on the sprayer...

As for your problem with the fish deaths, I'm stumped as you are...I don't think the wood had anything to do with it, though

 

[kribensis12]

Yeah, that's what I meant, I also have a TDS meter....dang, I didn't know ANY fish could live in that stuff, lol...I used to use it to pressure wash my house and garage, but it's so full of minerals it eventually clogs the nozzles on the sprayer...

As for your problem with the fish deaths, I'm stumped as you are...I don't think the wood had anything to do with it, though

Ha - I replaced my water heater two weeks ago and the ball valve for the hot water was dripping. It sealed itself in less than 24 hours due to the mineral content.

I don't like not knowing what happened - quality apistos are hard to find around here and I can't afford to lose any more!

 

[Slaphppy7]

Ha - I replaced my water heater two weeks ago and the ball valve for the hot water was dripping. It sealed itself in less than 24 hours due to the mineral content.

I don't like not knowing what happened - quality apistos are hard to find around here and I can't afford to lose any more!

Understood, mystery deaths bug the heck out of me...

 

[betta fish]

I'm thinking the Seachem ph adjuster might have done it? RO water is neutral and does not need dechlorinating so not quite sure why you would need to add it, fish cannot live in straight RO so adding some tap will add a bit of minerals for them, a 10 gallon tank does not give much margin for error as far as chemicals are concerned I'm afraid sorry you lost them I have never kept them myself but they look like beautiful fish.

 

[kribensis12]

I'm thinking the Seachem ph adjuster might have done it? RO water is neutral and does not need dechlorinating so not quite sure why you would need to add it, fish cannot live in straight RO so adding some tap will add a bit of minerals for them, a 10 gallon tank does not give much margin for error as far as chemicals are concerned I'm afraid sorry you lost them I have never kept them myself but they look like beautiful fish.

Thanks @betta fish . I use Seachem Neutral Regular to stablize the pH - so that they are not living in straight RO water as it stabilizes the pH at 7.0.

Without Neutral Regulator, especially in a 10g - I would expose the tank to a widely fluctuating pH which would obviously result in their death.

I have, in the past, done R/O water mixed with Tap Water - BUT, there is no consistency and with my water as hard as it is, it does not take much to buffer it way up.

Neutral Regulator is about the only way I have been able to keep it stable at 7.0.

 

[Byron]

A. Cacatouides is a soft water, low pH fish. Our water, out of the tap is 8.4 and the total hardness is 600 - which is INSANE.

I am breeding them and need a softer water with low pH.

I checked into the natural habitat of Apistogramma cacatuoides. Linke & Staeck (1994) report collecting this species in Peru, from the Rio Ucayali, in the region Chicosa. Water parameters were "soft to moderately hard," ph 7 to 8, and a temperature of 25C. Total hardness is given as 12 dGH [214 ppm].

I would suggest diluting your harder water with pure water (RO, rainwater?) to reduce the GH and the pH will likely lower as well. This is safer than using any chemicals like Neutral Regulator. The problem with additives is that fish continually take in water through all their cells, and substances in the water can readily enter the bloodstream and internal organs, not to mention what they can do in the gills. If you prepare the water externally, water changes should not result in fluctuating GH/pH.

 

[kribensis12]

I checked into the natural habitat of Apistogramma cacatuoides. Linke & Staeck (1994) report collecting this species in Peru, from the Rio Ucayali, in the region Chicosa. Water parameters were "soft to moderately hard," ph 7 to 8, and a temperature of 25C. Total hardness is given as 12 dGH [214 ppm].

I would suggest diluting your harder water with pure water (RO, rainwater?) to reduce the GH and the pH will likely lower as well. This is safer than using any chemicals like Neutral Regulator. The problem with additives is that fish continually take in water through all their cells, and substances in the water can readily enter the bloodstream and internal organs, not to mention what they can do in the gills. If you prepare the water externally, water changes should not result in fluctuating GH/pH.

Thanks for those thoughts.

It was my understanding that because Neutral Regulator is basic chemistry and all of the chemicals are naturally occurring, that it would not be problematic.

I will look into your suggestion.

@Byron any clue what caused the sudden death of one of my pairs?

 

[Byron]

Thanks for those thoughts.

It was my understanding that because Neutral Regulator is basic chemistry and all of the chemicals are naturally occurring, that it would not be problematic.

I will look into your suggestion.

@Byron any clue what caused the sudden death of one of my pairs?

I would not want to guess as to the cause, but I do think that the suggestions that other members have made are all contenders--differing parameters (between the two tanks perhaps), something in the chunk of wood, stress or injury from being moved, or the additives getting into the fish's bloodstream.

All chemical substances, or even "natural" substances like plant-derived additives, are usually detrimental to fish. @seangee and I have opinioned more than once in threads that the reason we see no disease or "inexplicable" fish deaths is because we do not add any of these substances. I use API Tap Water Conditioner minimally, and rarely a comprehensive liquid fertilizer for the floating plants (not since last December). I respect both Seachem and API as good sources for some products [which I use and recommend], but both also make products that I do not think should ever be dumped into an aquarium. If you look at all the additives Seachem "recommend," and use them, there would scarcely be space left in the tank for fresh water.

I have come to realize that a major problem in this hobby is the lack of understanding many have concerning fish biology. To cite from The Manual of Fish Health:

Fish are basically fluids living within a fluid medium separated only by a fairly permeable membrane. It is impossible to underestimate how close the relationship is between fish and their environment. What this means is that any change in the properties or state of the water around a fish has an immediate and profound impact on its physiology. In fact, fish are much more vulnerable to the changing state of their environment than are terrestrial animals. However, two factors offset this apparent vulnerability. Clearly, having evolved over millions of years, fish have become superbly adapted to survive in their unique environment and can, to some extent, compensate and adjust to changing conditions. |Also, the natural aquatic environment is generally quite stable.​

 

[kribensis12]

Thanks, @Byron .

I think, based on everyone's feedback - the only way to really "know" is after the 100% water change, place a test fish in the tank and see if they are affected. I'm hoping that I can put this strange death behind me.

 

[seangee]

fish cannot live in straight RO so adding some tap will add a bit of minerals for them,

Actually they can. 3 of my tanks get RO and nothing else. These all contain fish that come from soft to very soft water. In fact I set one of these tanks up specifically for apistos, but at the last minute I changed my mind and turned it into a macro nano community tank

 

[kribensis12]

Welp - I have changed 100% of the water.

I plopped two 1 month old baby black mollies into the tank - they are very healthy and vigorous, so if the water is poisoning them it'll be obvious to note their behavioral change.

 

[anewbie]

First I would not use nearly pure ro water even with sachem. I would use a ratio of mixed water from the faucet with ro. If you want a target tds of 100 (tds is not hardness) and it is 600 from faucet then mix 5 part ro and 1 part tap and skip the sachem stuff. Second fishes are very sensitive to rapid change in water chemistry and temp. I suspect every time you do a water change there is variance between the water in the tank and the water being added and if this variance is high it will severely stress the fish. Cockatoo are clear water fish and do not need super soft acidic water to breed. Worse most cockatoo you buy are actually tank raised and they are not use to the water from their native habitat. You can of course adjust them to water closer to their native habitat but it should be gradual.
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While it is of course possible something was on the wood (I normally soak it in a pail for a week in advance - you should not boil drift wood); I would hope that you would at least rinse the wood off before adding it to the tank. Btw i also have used zoomed wood.