Please tell me what is wrong with my swordtail (picture)

[Vorpal]

Hi everyone,
Can someone please tell me what is causing the lumps on my swordtail. It making it hard for him to swim, though he otherwise seems ok. He's been moved to a hospital tank.

Parameters of both tanks are similar.
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 15 (the scale is imprecise but has steps at 12.5 and 25, and the colour is between, but closer to 12.5)
Nitrite <0.3 (that's the lowest marking on the scale)
pH 7.5
hardness 11 dH

I do weekly water changes of 30 - 50% water, though the biological loads are realtively light in our tanks. We have two swordtails and 7 smallish corydoras sterbai in 120 litres.

The swordtail in the picture is now in a 30 litre hospital tank by himself. I have been changing 50% water every two days, and keeping the temperature fairly high in the tank (27.8 C) and also using a bit of aquarium salt, but I don't think either is helping.

TIA

 

[Vorpal]

One more bit of information... We have very soft water where I live, and when another swordtail was poorly, I found out http://www.fishforums.net/threads/sad-swordtail.446771/#post-3778651 that they prefer harder water, so I have been gradually increasing water hardness since.

I noticed the lumps about two weeks ago, though I did not realise that it was something wrong until the weekend, and then they were somewhat bigger.

 

[TheSoggyBagel]

Hi! The picture isn't very clear, but from here it looks like the scales are raised? If so, that's a huge red flag. That could indicate dropsey, which is usually fatal. As for the bump, I'm not sure. Maybe a fungus of some sorts? Good idea quarantining him!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vorpal]

For anyone who comes across this thread, or has a similar problem with a swordtail....

I now think that the fish pictured above suffered from cancer. He died a few weeks after this post. I have another one, now. A very similar looking offspring of the pictured fish recently developed a lump in exactly the same place on his fin.

I did some searching and came across this old thread on another forum. http://www.aquaboards.com/archive/index.php/t-74060.html?s=dd44d7aa536565f790942511c81d66f9

The new victim seems to be doing okay with it so far. I didn't know what caused it, so he is separated from our other fish.

It occurs in some sword tails with dark pigment, especially if it has a velvety appearance. It seems that sometimes their tail fins fall off, or partially fall off, and they can live for a long time like that, or sometimes it spreads and they die.

 

[Colin_T]

I'm not sure how I missed this thread. I was around in 2018

Tumours can affect fish and cause lumpy bits to grow over time (weeks to months). They don't normally grow around the caudal peduncle region (where the tail and body join), and they don't normally cause the tail to fall apart. Bacterial infections can cause this.

You could try adding a heap of salt to the tank with the sick fish in the quarantine tank. Use 2-4 heaped tablespoons of rock salt, sea salt or swimming pool salt. Leave the salt in the water for 2-4 weeks and see if there's an improvement.

You can try a broad spectrum fish medication while the fish is in quarantine.

If you can post some pictures of the sick fish, it might provide some more information.

The link you provided doesn't seem to load up.

 

[Vorpal]

I have put salt in the tank and turned the temperature up a bit. But that treatment did not help the previous victim. I also tried Sera baktopur direct, which are tablets that say 'water treatment against internal and external bacteria' for fresh and marine water fish. I still have some & the best by date is until August, so I could try them again. I also have some treatment with malachite green oxalate and methythioninium chloride that I have never used.

Here are a couple of pictures of the current victim. I will post more about the thread about cancer in sword tails in another reply.

 

[Vorpal]

OK... this is an excerpt of relevant discussion from the thread linked above. What is described is identical to the progression I have observed in my two fish. Someone in the thread linked some pictures on photobucket that I cannot access.

RedAngelFish
03-02-2011, 02:10 PM
I hear there is a possibility of cancer in the black strain of swordtails. Is it advisable to put blacks in with other fish? Can it be transmitted?

starrynightxxi
03-02-2011, 02:40 PM
cancer is not a contagious disease, though I suppose if you have other swords or platies in the same you might breed a tendency towards cancer into those lines...

RedAngelFish
03-02-2011, 03:14 PM
Thank you STARRY, Can I say DAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH? I appreciate your quick responce...........

yimes
03-02-2011, 04:01 PM
No it can not be transmitted and my understanding and research is that it is not black (body) swordtails so much as swordtails that have black fins. I have kept black swordtails that have clear fins or streaks of black and they do fine. I have also kept showa and painted swords that when they develop solid black fins they have developed cancer. In my experience the color of the body is not the danger it is the color of the fin.

vegetarian_great_white
03-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Are they subject to a particular type of cancer or in a particular organ, do you know?

yimes
03-02-2011, 04:25 PM
The cancer is like melanoma, a tumor at the site of the black tail fin. The fin gets thick (the tumor growing) and eventually dies/falls off. I don't know about
"spreading" to organs but I am pretty sure it is akin to skin cancer so I don't see why it could not. I have had swords with black tails develop cancer and live for many months or longer. Of course they lose their tail fins. BTW when I say tail I do not mean sword. I probably have one or two currently so I will see if I can get a good pic later tonight. It is not an epidemic, and for me seems to only effect fish with solid black tail fins and then not all of them.

vegetarian_great_white
03-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Thanks. I am doing some reading now. Some other interesting findings: The melanoma is associated with larger male size and more aggressive males in wild swords. The ones with black spots in the tail (which presumably are the origin of those black fin/tail phenotypes that are more cancer-prone) are favored by the females. Wouldn't be surprized if large and aggressive males are getting more females (maybe they are also the ones with black fin spots). That is some explanation why evolution did not get rid of these guys.

Now I am intrigued by this model. A lot of the time, the genes related to dermal patterning are also involved in the making of other collagenous tissues. As I am reading on, I recognize some of the proteins (eg. osteopontin) they identifed as related to this cancer. I am wondering if swordtail would be a good model to study connective tissue problems. Sorry, I digress. It is fascinating.

fishfarmer2000
03-03-2011, 09:21 AM
The advice I got and followed on pure black swords was to use black males only for a generation or two to keep the bodies black but when the black starts on the fins to use black females and pure red males the next generation. This does two things- it reduces the black on the fins and it also makes a pretty, black fish with red fins. I think these are called black berlins.
Steve

UncleDare
03-03-2011, 11:59 AM
Black in the fins isn't necessarily connected to cancer; Wag Swords do not get cancerous growths. However, a quick rule of thumb is that any black on the body that is solid or velvety in appearance does have a higher probability of cancer. Black swords generally have some green iridescent spots on them, and are less likely to become cancerous than something like Tuxedo, which is invariably cancerous on the body in a homozygous genetic state. The marble patterns actually come from two different genes; one is related to the Black sword and shows some iridescence, the other has no iridescence in it, and is what you see in "Painted" patterns like the one above. This one does seem to have a greater tendency toward cancer in the fins or at the base of the fins, though I have seen specimens with cancer on the body. It is sometimes harder to spot on the body.

You can also get melanomas in some types of Albino Swords! An albino combined with the gene for Tuxedo can, as an adult, develop deeply embedded melanomas, despite the fact that albinism is caused by blocking the production of enzymes necessary to produce melanin. This is why they were used in a lot of cancer research back in the 1960s. There is an actual gene connected to the cancer, and this discovery was very important back then.

vegetarian_great_white
03-03-2011, 04:48 PM
What I read was for Helleri type swords (Montezumae and Cortezi; is it OK to call them Helleri?) although it seems all Xiphophorus are fair game. It may not be generalized to black fins if spotted-tail is associated with cancer in certain species of swords. It would depend on what morph that gene will produce in a hybrid. Your example (eg. Albino + Tuxedo) is saying that the oncogene does not consistently produce the black-fin morphology (assuming it comes from Tuxedo) and that there are other genes that can give you black fins. So it is not a reliable way of predicting cancer in these fish. Is the black fin in Wag sword coming from a platy that is not cancer-prone?

The Albino case may also have something to do with external factors such as higher susceptibility to DNA damage from UV light while the spot-tail sword may be inherently disposed to grow tumors (like growing moles). I am sure they must have studied this under UV and non-UV conditions. Do you know what was found?

 

[Vorpal]

You can se that our guy has lost a little bit of his tail, which made me wonder about fin rot or something, but the lump formed before anything else happened. And the other one who died last year never had anything that looked like rot. He looked otherwise fine until his lump was quite large, then he lost his sword. The rest of his fins looked fine.

 

[Colin_T]

The fish in the picture looks like something took a bite out of his tail. It's a little bit frayed at the top of the tail too but that looks old and not recent or infected.

You could try the anti-bacterial treatment if it gets worse but I would avoid Malachite Green because it causes cancer.

Unfortunately Malachite Green has been used to treat protozoan infections on fish for 50 years and it's still readily available. Whilst it is very effective, salt and copper are my preferred choice due to being safer. But copper kills shrimp so you have to choice your poison so to speak.

It's interesting that there seems to be an issue with swordtails developing cancer on the tail. I wonder if this has something to do with excessive chemical use in fish farms and quarantine facilities, or if it's just bad genetics caused by too much inbreeding at the fish farms. If it is genetics, you should probably drop that bloodline and make a new one to try and stop the spread of the bad genes.

 

[AKfish]

Unfortunately fish breeding or most animal breeding isn't really regulated in any way. This leads to very unfavorable genetics in some specie's more then others. I have a Petco bought female betta in my tank now. She has a huge hump on her back almost like a rainbow fish. Basically fish scoliosis that makes her basically always bloated. Meaning I have to quarantine her every week for a couple days eating only peas to clean out. But she is happy and that's what it's about. Anyway some fish are just prone to genetic issues unless gotten from a reputable breeder. Which 99% of big box stores go to biggest bang for their buck breeders with often poor genetics. I would suggest looking into maybe ordering some sword tails from a good breeder. Or try a smaller mom and pop type pet store. At least not a national chain store. Best of luck.

 

[AKfish]

There is my lumpy little girl lol

 

[Vorpal]

Anyway some fish are just prone to genetic issues unless gotten from a reputable breeder. Which 99% of big box stores go to biggest bang for their buck breeders with often poor genetics. I would suggest looking into maybe ordering some sword tails from a good breeder. Or try a smaller mom and pop type pet store. At least not a national chain store. Best of luck.

I live in Norway. There are not many independent pet shops, and none near me. There is a fish keeping club, and I've considered contacting them, but the fish are actually my son's and he's not interested in the club. The pet shop that I got our first fish from I no longer use. I'm not happy with how they treat their fish. I pointed out some sick fish in one of their tanks and when I went in a few days later, nothing had changed, except there were a couple of dead fish in the tank. I said something again, and when I was there a week later, they were quarantined and under treatment, but it was too late for most of them