Please Help! :( Parrot Fish, Bacteria Or Fungus Medicine Needed?

[ian]

we shall all continue this in PM, i'm on my iphone at present and will give the evidence when i finish work.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Apologies to the OP for taking this slightly off-topic.

As suggested, some garlic paste will help entice her to eat.

 

[anon02]

Just a word of caution, although the sick fish may be behaving more normally, if it was a bacterial infection the fish could now be a sub clinical carrier and although it has aquired a resistance to the pathogen, other fish you add to the tank could become infected since they most likely wont have built up resistance

All aquaria carry bacteria, some under the right conditions (bad water quality, poor maintenance) can become pathogenic, so as most other posters in your thread have said good husbandry is paramount to keeping a good balance

 

[SuperColey1]

Whilst this is definitely an emergency with fish deaths happening I think the cause needs to be found rather than assumptions on old myths being followed.

Its another age old myth r.e. the problem of anaerobic substrates. Something we often get in planted forums where people argue about sand compaction starving oxygen from plant roots.

The reality is that in a non planted tank and a planted tank this is not an issue at all.

The '3 people who 'say' this has happened have read incorrect factual info and therefore correlate that with their experience.

When you get this gas buildup in the substrate it is hydrogen sulphide which is most definitely poisonous however the minute it comes into contact with oxygen it turns to Sulphur Oxides which are harmless. They still smell but not harmless. I doubt this would cause enough smell to 'stink out the house' as per the OPs experience so I would be looking somewhere else for the causes of death.

I wouldn't think in a gravel bed it would be a problem in the slightest. Its more an issue relating to fine particle substrates like playsand etc.

As for the evidence you speak of it is pretty hard to provide solid evidence to the contrary however I can give you credible sources to negate any fears over this issue.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php...te-gas-pockets/page__p__1758205&#entry1758205

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/267193-gas-in-sand/



I know you are not planted but another myth on the subject of anaerobic substrates/compaction rather than the gas buildup but also in line with the subject in question is where some people try and say that compaction starves the roots of oxygen. Often suggesting products to alleviate the issue. However when there is money to be made then the myth will be fueled by those who can line their pockets.

In reality plants roots are like tubes of oxygen inside the substrate and far from being starved of oxygen they carry oxygen into the substrate. They do not need circulation etc.

Here's some subject matter on that:
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/substrate/726-do-you-use-power-sand-together-aqua-soil.html

I'm not posting to have an argument on this issue nor is it a personal attack or ego trip. The threads above are there for all to read and you can make your own decisions. I just think it will help the OP and the problem the OP has to be able to dismiss this problem as the cause and try and find out what the real cause is. Better than chasing an assumption and consequently stop searching for other answers IMO

There may be something else that has happened at the same time or even caused by it. I have no doubt that those who say they got the smell and then the deaths happened are true and it may be the process that caused the deaths but it is important to correct any statements r.e. the Sulfides were the killer. A by product? Possibly?

Its not enough to say show me some evidence on any subject and then suggest that several people have said xxx. We've said it a million times before If a million people have a problem with something yet 1 with the same 'something' doesn't that is enough to falsify the theory. That is science. Then we move on and re-examine the root cause.

I would suggest ammonia is much more than likely the culprit. Whatever disturbed the substrate to release the smell will have also released ammonia from the substrate. The water changes have helped dilute that and the OPs observations would suggest this too.


AC

 

[FreedomFighter]

Actually if you run some searches on Hydrogen Sulphide and what happens when it comes in contact with water, you'll clearly see that it dissolves and pollutes the water, making the water acidic and poisonous.

Hydrogen Sulphide mixed with H20 makes oxygen impossible to be carried by red blood cells, and effectively suffocates.

There is plenty of evidence out there showing that hydrogen sulphide, even when in contact with water, is toxic and dangerous.

EDIT just to clarify more.

Hydrogen sulphide when it comes in contact will also make some Sulphur Dioxide, so you will have dissolved hydrogen sulphide (highly toxic) and Sulphur Dioxide (which by the way, is also highly toxic)

The short term exposure limit for a human to come into contact with sulphur dioxide is currently 0.25ppm. Now put a fish in the same surroundings, 0.25ppm for 20-30minutes = dead fish.

And that's an incredibly low PPI.

Do I need to say more?

 

[SuperColey1]

Do I need to say more?

Yes you need to be using aquatic research. You can't apply the science of human bodies to an aquatic system. Just as we in planted can't use terrestrial plant research as bible for aquatic plants.

I'll try and find something else but we can't use human blood information when addressing an aquarium problem.

That would be like dismissing that human chocolate is bad for dogs!!!

As for the disagreement on the ocide/dioxide you would need to question the author of the first article I linked to.

I am merely providing you the detail you asked for earlier and am not a scientist in the least.

However that is off topic. We are merely dismissing it as a problem here unless the OP has incredibly poor maintenance routines which I very much doubt.

I would suggest it is nigh on impossible to get this problem in sand let alone gravel without huge amounts of organic matter left in the substrate.

I can only offer you the 'reading' you requested in an earlier post and anecdotal evidence from my tank where my substrate is indeed completely organic below a very thick layer of very fine play sand.

This substrate has been in situ for 3 years with no disturbance (no stirrng) etc and a stream of bubbles come out of it ocasionally (normally from under hardscape/decor) with no deaths or effect on livestock!!

I would suggest we get back on topic rather than argue over this issue happening in an environment where it should be almost impossible to achieve this occurrence.

Water changes would not remove the problem from a substrate but it will remove ammonia from the water column.

AC

 

[FreedomFighter]

I'm merely defending myself after the original attack on me from the first page.

Like a fox in a corner, I won't back down.

Plus, as a final note, if sulphur dioxide, and hydrogen sulphide are both poisonous to drink, then surely it's quite obvious that it would be toxic to fish who breathe it in, as well as everything else, it's common sense!

Blah.

 

[SuperColey1]

Like a fox in a corner, I won't back down.

Bad way to go though. You should question yourself just as I do. I have made statements before but then I research or am corrected, and not try just to prove the other wrong. If I am questioned I am open minded and consider that maybe I am wrong.

Seek the truth rather than refusing to believe our own knowledge may be wrong.

Plus, as a final note, if sulphur dioxide, and hydrogen sulphide are both poisonous to drink, then surely it's quite obvious that it would be toxic to fish who breathe it in, as well as everything else, it's common sense!

Nope not at all. Common Sense is different for each person what makes common sense to me differs from yours.

Like I said above if human chocolate is fine for humans then surely it is fin for dogs. That is a similar assumption you make above however we know it is not correct.

Similarly if a human eats dog food at each meal every day will they be fine or will their body not handle that amount of raw meat or be defficient from not eating enough vegetation etc.

You should question this subject in the same way. To assess anything we must look at the specific environment and not compare different environments however much it may seem like common sense.

Blah.

What is that supposed to mean?

If we want to discuss this subject then add it to the end of the first link I gave. This is a topic about why fish are dying, not the merit in or discrediting the anaerobic substrate issue as we are now. That doesn't help the OP.

I still maintain though whether it is a problem or not it should not apply to a gravel substrate with loads of gaps within it. If it really is an issue it is to do with fine particle substrates that trap the gas and it accumulates.

I'm happy to join you in that discussion in the scientific section and I am sure the author would be to. I can't give input as to the actual chemistry behind the process however being open minded and very prepared to back down I like to discover the truth even it makes me look silly

This is how we learn. It benefits all rather than sticking to our guns we should welcome being wrong if it benefits us all. I ma quite ready to be wrong because then my understanding becomes more accurate and my knowledge base expands.


AC

 

[FreedomFighter]

I've experienced this first hand, as have many others, and I have spent many many hours trawling through research papers online to find out results of toxicity levels.

And there's a massive difference between chocolate and sulphuric acid.

I am more than prepared to be wrong, but so far, noone supplied any evidence to even remotely hint at me being wrong.

The reason the fish died was the release of sulphurous acid into the tank, with the possibility of an ammopnia spike, likely caused by the un-found dead fish in the tank, the OP knows this, we know this.

 

[SuperColey1]

Well I'll leave it there. You have already diagnosed the problem from small detail!!!

I never said chocolate was like sulphuric acid. I was merely showing that you can't compare different creatures situations when assessing what should 'surely' make common sense.

No point in arguing with those who aren't open minded enough to consider a contradicting possibility.

Now I must get back to my tank as I need to add nitrates, phosphates,copper, iron and other heavy metals into it, whilst watching my fish swimming into super high flow instead of trying to find a lower flow area!

I've experienced this first hand, as have many others, and I have spent many many hours trawling through research papers online to find out results of toxicity levels.

p.s. Can you link me to these papers. May enlighten me a little. Right or wrong I like to learn and correct any incorrect understandings I have.


AC

 

[ian]

I would also just echo AC sentiments on this topic. FF can I also add that I did not attack you in any way, just put my thoughts across. Which you obviously disagree with. I suggest we open another topic on this discussion and try and keep it to a discussion rather than thinking attacks are taking place.

 

[FreedomFighter]

..I've been awaiting any kind of supporting evidence from the counter argument for the last 16 hours.

Is that not open minded enough? Or should I just believe completely un-backed up ideas. #40## I hate the people on this site sometimes.

 

[ian]

http/home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm#Low_Fertility_Substrates

references at the bottom and they are all very credible resources, sorry i have been at work all day so have been unable to get links.

Sulfate / Sulfide - Sulfide ions may be produced in a low redox environment; however, these are rapidly oxidized to non-toxic forms. Iron will also react with sulfide compounds to form non-toxic FeS. Sulfides are oxidized to sulfates by free oxygen which exists in the top half inch or so of the substrate and are never present in oxygenated water. The concern over hydrogen sulfide formation in organic substrates seems to be greatly exaggerated. Aquatic plants have adapted to protect their roots via the oxygen conducting channels, the aerenchyma tissues. An established aquarium substrate may be so filled with roots that no regions have sufficiently low redox potential to cause sulfide formation. An aquarium with insufficient light or conditions necessary for photosynthesis may suffer oxygen deficit and hydrogen sulfide formation may result.

 

[FreedomFighter]

http/www.holar.is/aquafarmer/node131.html

If Hydrogen sulfide so easily dissolves in oxygenated water then how come it can still be easily found. It can't ALL be turned into Sulphur Dioxide.

Hydrogen Sulphide can be found in natural springs, wells, drinking water, all running water, all will be reasonably well oxygenated. Yet it can still be found.

"According to the Environmental Protection Agency, a maximum acceptable level of H2S for fish and aquatic life is 0.002 ppm."

http/www.nfkc.info/Hydrogen%20Sulfide.htm

http/www.ausetute.com.au/acidrain.html

^^ shows that Hydrogen sulphide that is dissolved in the water will quickly become sulphuric acid, and breathing sulphuric acid can't be healthy, no matter which way you look at it.

http/soiltesting.tamu.edu/publications/L-5312.pdf

Is one of many links that suggests that whilst hydrogen sulphide is dissolvable in water, it's the chlorine in water that often nutralises the toxin. In a dechlorinated tank this can't happen.
It also says that oxygen can dissolve up to 2mg/l hydrogen sulphide.

A large build-up of hydrogen sulphide under the substrate can surely equal more than 2mg/l.

 

[SuperColey1]

Thanks for the links I'll take a look at them later. Give me something to read over the next few days

"According to the Environmental Protection Agency, a maximum acceptable level of H2S for fish and aquatic life is 0.002 ppm."

This is the same EPA that blames algae in ditches and streams on excess nutrient run off from agricultural land. They forget to address that they are continually dredging these ditches, stream, rivers off their natural weeds to 'beautify' them thus removing the plants that would combat algae.

Thats another story but thanks for the links. Shall take a look and will be more than happy to accept any specific testing that is conclusive on the actual environment in question i.e. aquatic life.

AC