Please explain what went on in my fish less cycle situation, and what now there's nitrate?

[Fishy Features]

Hi all,

I'm a complete beginner trying to get this right for my 7 year old.

I think I get the basics of the nitrogen cycle. I'd like to know why it has taken this long to kick off in this tank.

Its been two weeks and the tank bacteria have not been effective at converting ammonia. Until now? There is now a low nitrate reading for three days. And I've just now tested for Nitrite and it's detectable.

At the beginning I added ammonium and Seachem Stability together, thinking the bacteria would immediately activate and reduce the ammonium. This did not happen. After watching and reading advice, I water changed 50% of the tank, bringing ammonia to 2ppm, and stopped adding more. I continued adding Stability.

What confuses me the most, is how the ammonia reading is so "stable", i.e. stalled, over two weeks despite daily Stability dosage? Could there be ammonia coming from plants or gravel? Or is the Stability very slow to activate? I mean really, the Stability bottle is more than half finished by now. If it really contains bacterial spores that activate and colonise the tank, then why didn't they exponentially reproduce until the ammonia is exhausted? Lack of adequate media to grow colonies on? Or is that how long do Stability ammonia converting bacterial spores take to 'activate'? Two weeks? Could the bottle of Stability be sub par, and the spores were dead or few? Or is something in the tank killing the ammonia converting bacteria before they can reproduce and establish? (pH consistently 7.2 ish.)

So bemusing! Any explinations or theories would be great.

I think my next step should be to stop adding Stability, now there is a Nitrite and Nitrate reading, and see what happens. Water change? Start adding Ammonium Chloride again? I'm open to suggestions!

Thanks,
Robin

Is this detail useful? 50L 13US Gallon tank; half rain water and half tap; about 500g of gravel; about 15 plant cuttings that seem to be doing ok; a shell my wife put in, a heater at 25 Celsius 77 Fahrenheit; a filter with sponge, active carbon pellets (Unbranded, bought in bulk online, washed until no black dust), and a bag of what I think contains ceramic flakes (I will check this). All the tank and equipment is second hand and thoroughly cleaned. New Ammonium, Stability and API test kit. I have not used a water conditioner.

Daily readings and additions

day

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

Notes

I was not shaking the Stability until this day

(accidentally used 'acidic' ph test)

water change 50% tank (of half tap, half rain)

PH

7.2?

pm 7.2

(below?) the min of 7.4

7.2

pm 7.4

Ammonia level

0

3

am 3, pm 2

pm 2, pm after adding A.C. 4

am 4

4

4, then 4

4, then 2 after WC

am 2, pm 2

am 2

am 2, am 2

am 2, pm 1.5?

am 1.5

am 1.5

Nitrite level

pm 0

pm 0

am 0

0

0

0

pm 0.5

Nitrate

am 0

am 2.5ppm?

am 2.5

added

20 (1/4 tsp) drops amonium chloride

20 drops (1/4 tsp) amonium chloride, 20 drops stability

am: 20 drops (1/4 tsp) amonium chloride, 20 drops stability. pm: same

pm 1/4tsp drops A.C. + 1/4tsp Stability, later pm 1/4 tsp SHAKEN Stability.

1/4tsp Ammonium

1/4tsp of Ammonium

1 cap (5ml) of Stability

am 1 cap Stability. pm 1/2 cap Stability

am 1 cap Stability

1 cap Stability

am 1 cap Stability

am 1 cap Stability

am 1 cap stability

In retrospect...

Why did i add more NH?

And more

And more

Well, I thought this much would trigger the bacteria cycle, but, no?

Why did i add more ammonium?

Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride Solution says do not exceed 5ppm. I'm sure some youtube video said Stability works best when ammonia is under 4. However this ammonia seemed to go up and up. So water change seemed the only option.

Talked to Hollywood. Advice: no ammonuim, more Stability.

am Swapped order of filter: carbon from mid to top, and bio chips to middle. Could rotting plant matter be providing extra ammonia already, or is the Stability simply not working?

Added those black 'bio balls' from the other tank's filter.

Cycle Complete? Why is pH increasing?

 

[seangee]

Just a little patience. The cycle typically takes anywhere between 4 and 12 weeks to complete. If you are seeing nitrite you are on the right track. In my experience products like stability may (or may not) speed up the process. There is no point in testing for nitrate until the nitrite drops to zero, the nitrate test measures both nitrite and nitrate so the results are inaccurate when you have both present.
In case you haven't found it here is a detailed description of the process.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Welcome to TFF

No water conditioner? Is your tap water treated with chlorine, chloramine?

 

[Playsander]

Welcome to TFF

No water conditioner? Is your tap water treated with chlorine, chloramine?

Well if he is getting nitrite and nitrate readings I would suspect the presence of nitrifiying bacteria and so would also suggest no chlorine.

 

[Essjay]

A few points -
Our cycling expert TwoTankAmin has stated that the bacteria we want to grow don't form spores so any product saying it contains spores cannot have the correct bacteria species.
Even the products which do contain the right species don't cycle a tank instantly. It still takes time. Without using bottled bacteria, it took 21 days for me before ammonia showed any signs of dropping and for a trace of nitrite to show up.
Plants take up ammonia and they don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate so if your cuttings are growing well, they will change the pattern of a cycle compared to a tank with no plants.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Well if he is getting nitrite and nitrate readings I would suspect the presence of nitrifiying bacteria and so would also suggest no chlorine.

If OP hasnt been changing water during their fishless cycle then any chlorine will have long since evaporated off. Do a water change however with no water conditioner and you risk any chlorine wiping out everything you have achieved up to the water change.

 

[Fishy Features]

Thanks for the great replies.

here is a detailed description of the process.

Good comprehensive info, I'll use the guide you suggest primarily as it seems to address all the iffy /contested aspects up front and in detail, and I think I can adapt it to my current situation. i.e. adding more ammonium if it drops below .25ppm.

Thinking ahead to when the tank is fully cycled, as soon as we add fish, should I completely stop adding ammonium chloride, regardless of ammonium and nitrite levels? I imagine that adding supplementary ammonia to the water after adding fish would poison them?

No water conditioner? Is your tap water treated with chlorine, chloramine?

I think Auckland New Zealand tap water is river water treated with chlorine. Some of our water comes form the Waikato river notorious for cow poo runoff. I'm not sure what this means for initial water contamination and what Watercare do to neutralise it, maybe I should read this detailed info on NZ water. Anyway, I'm picking up some second hand API Aqua Essential this weekend. Hopefully it's not expired.

By the way, I found this on a NZ fish forum from about 10 years ago "The only way to get rid of the various chloramines is to add sodium thiosulphate which then produces minute quantities of colloidal sulphur,sodium sulphate and hydrochloric acid all of which are less toxic than chlorine or chloramines." I know conditioners address contaminates other than chlorine but would sodium thiosulfate be sufficient to treat our tap water?

Our cycling expert TwoTankAmin has stated that the bacteria we want to grow don't form spores so any product saying it contains spores cannot have the correct bacteria species.

Thanks for this info. Stability seems to be doing something? However I am suspicious of the Seachem Stability, namely thinking of our tanks stalled ammonia timeline (perhaps the un-conditioned tap water chlorine killed them?) What is most irritating is that Seachem have no specific info on what is in the bottle, in fact they assert "The bacteria in Stability™ are alive but not active. They exist in a spore form." They do not have clear or sufficient dosing instructions (no mention of high ammonia level risks, etc). Seachem say "Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days." which frankly seems irresponsible looking at 14 days of our tank chemical readings!

Do a water change however with no water conditioner and you risk any chlorine wiping out everything you have achieved up to the water change.

noted!

Todays readings: Ammonia 2, Nitrite 2 to 5ppm (or more?), Nitrate 10ppm. Added 1 cap of Stability.

This week I'll add more substrate, probably scoria chips (boiled first). We're thinking of making a scoria sculpture centrepiece with silicone glue and adding it prior to any fish

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The answer is simple, Stability is a waste of time and money. The nitrifying bacteria reproduce by dividing, they do not form spores. Stability is a bottle of spores. You figure it out.

This site is full of information re the above. The proper bacteria to use to jump start a cycle is either Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra's Safe Start or Safe Start Plus. There are live bacteria of the right kind and they will get a tank fully cycled in 7 -10 days.

One can also use media, media rinsing or substrate from an established tank to provide a kick start using the right bacteria. This is less precise than using the bottled products above.

 

[Slaphppy7]

I think Auckland New Zealand tap water is river water treated with chlorine. Some of our water comes form the Waikato river notorious for cow poo runoff. I'm not sure what this means for initial water contamination and what Watercare do to neutralise it, maybe I should read this detailed info on NZ water. Anyway, I'm picking up some second hand API Aqua Essential this weekend. Hopefully it's not expired.

By the way, I found this on a NZ fish forum from about 10 years ago "The only way to get rid of the various chloramines is to add sodium thiosulphate which then produces minute quantities of colloidal sulphur,sodium sulphate and hydrochloric acid all of which are less toxic than chlorine or chloramines." I know conditioners address contaminates other than chlorine but would sodium thiosulfate be sufficient to treat our tap water?

Yes, do read the water quality/treatment report you linked above; I haven't had time to view it today

Most importantly, if your tap water is treated for safe drinking/cooking, we need to know if it's treated with chlorine, or if it's treated with chloramine...there's a difference between the two, and a difference in which water conditioner you will need in the future...if you need one at all

As you are in the midst of a fishless cycle, you shouldn't be needing to perform water changes at this point, anyway, so no need for the right water conditioner at this time...but soon after the tank is cycled, and contains fish, weekly water changes are recommended...and new water added to the tank needs to be safe for the fish