Permanent Co2 Test....

I think I have my new EI tank set up OK, but with one exception.......CO2!

I have used calculators that say myCO2 is 85ppm (my two Ottos say otherwise), my JBL chart saying I am too low and the 24 hour pH drop test which says I am in the ball park. How I can measure 30ppm as opposed to 29ppm or 37ppm God only knows.

Personally, I will stick to the 24 hour check that Themuleous likes until my budget extends to a Gucci glass drop checker from Aquaessentials, and give using a 4dKH buffer a go.
 
All

Here is a couple of copy n pastes from a post on another fourm by VaughnH that give some detail and background on this method. Apologies if posting these breaks any forum rules ...... just trying to spread the word and the original info is far better than me trying to understand/explain it all !
VaughnH: " Al, I notice some are asking "how do you know that the ppm of CO2 in the bulb is the same as in the water?" The answer is: If there is a sealed quantity of air in contact with water which has CO2 in it, remembering that CO2 goes into and out of solution with water very easily, the air will soon reach an equilibrium with the water, with as much CO2 entering the air as is leaving it. Now, if that air is in contact with a sealed bit of water, that water and the air will also reach an equilibrium, with as much CO2 entering the water as is leaving it. No matter what the actual amount of CO2 in the air gap is, the equilibrium will be such that both batches of water will reach the same concentration of CO2. I tested this and reported the test on APC, at:DIY Drop Checker - Page 5 - Aquatic Plant Central- aquascaping...a living art."
It looks like he's tested it pretty well......

Actually from talking to him, it seems the original idea belonged to somebody else, so for the sake of giving due credit .........
VaughnH: "Thank you Al! I wish I could take all of the credit for the method, but Dennerle was using it before I ever heard of it, and I really got the idea from "Gomer" (Tony Gomez), who casually mentioned using distilled water in the bulb instead of tank water, which led me to try to prove he was wrong about that. Like many of my "proofs" I ended up proving that he was right, and then just reasoned out why he was right. I hope the idea gets spread widely enough that all of the "aquatic plant gardeners" know about it. That's why I have become a nag in always recommending it on all of the forums I visit."

....... Hopefully others will give this method a try !

Cheers
Al
 
Top thread Al. Thanks for sharing.
I've put up a link to this in the pinned CO2 thread.
B) Cheers George.
Hopefully others will give this a try and give some feedback. It only takes about 30mins to set everything up.

For anybody wanting to try this, here is a quick summary on how to set it up ...

Requirements:
Drop Checker. (I use a glass one, but plastic or DIY one will do perfectly well)
Distilled Water.
Bicarbonate of soda (not baking powder!)
KH test kit. (I used the Nutrafin KH test kit)
PH test kit. (I tried both Nutrafin and Tetra test kits)

Mixing the reference solution:
I did a KH test on the distilled water, 1 drop (nutrafin) turned it yellow, you need to aim for a dKH of 4 by adding small amounts of bicarb of soda.

Just mixed a larger batch of solution up and 0.1g of bicarb of soda was enough to raise 1ltr of distilled water to approx 4dKH. So you see we are talking VERY small ammounts.
The tiny measuring spoon from a Tetra NO3 test kit, each one gave approx a +2dKH rise in the 100ml of distilled water. So 2 of these spoons got me to roughly 4dKH.

Fine tune the reference solution:
One you're around 4dKH, it seems best to 'fine tune' the solution to give a greater accuracy with the CO2 measurement. With the Nutrafin KH test kit uses 1 drop of reagent equals 1dKH when testing with 5ml of water. I used 20ml of distilled water (As advised by VaughnH) so that each drop of reagent equals .25 dKH, this allows to fine tune the solution to the required level. I found it's far easier to add a few drops of water and bring the KH down that mess with the tiny amounts of bicarb needed !
I now have a reference solution that turns yellow at 4dKH +/- .25dKH accruacy !

Fill the drop checker:
Once you are happy with your solution you simply add it to the drop checker. The easiest way to do this seems to be with a dropper. I used the ones that came with some Seachem Flourish. Fill your drop checker bulb approx 2/3 full

Any spare solution can be stored for refilling the drop checker. I'm not sure how long the drop checker solution lasts for, but I believe it's a few weeks.

The final stage is to add a few drops of PH reagent. You need to add enough to give a distinct colour to the solution, without making it too dark/opaque.

At this stage your solution should be blue, showing that you have very little Co2 in the solution.
Place the filled drop checker into the tank about 3 inches below the surface.

This method takes a bit of time for the reference solution CO2 to equalise with that of the tank. After 2 or 3 hours your drop checker should have changed colour.

Green means you're pretty close to 30ppm.
Any hint of blue shows low CO2, any hint of yellow shows your CO2 is high.

NOTE:
Personally I like this method as an easy visual reference that nothing has changed.
I wouldn't use it totally 'stand alone' but use it in conjuction with other observations, particularly those of your fish ... if your test shows green, but the fish are at the surface gulping .... something is wrong !

I think there is probably a margin of error in just about any test method, especially where we judge readings against a colour reference.
I do however think this method is closer than most, as you have an accurate KH solution and the readings cannot be affected by anything else in the tank that may influence PH/KH !

Cheers
Al
 
Just had a thought, the principle behind both the JBL and bulb drop checkers is the same, no? I.e. CO2 escapes from the water into a container which turns the reagent green? Its the reagent that goes in these that is the weak link? If so could all those people will existing CO2 test kits not just add the 4dKH solution with pH solution?

Just a thought to save people money!

Sam
 
Most CO2 indicators use the same principle I think, so yes. As long as they have the all important air gap then they would all work the same.
 
That's it!!! I've had enough of everybody talking about this method. Going to have to try it myself and buy myself a nice new drop checker for a christmas present. Didn't I read somewhere that vaughnh thought it worked better with a KH of 5 rather than 4 or is my mind going?

James
 
Ah, found what I was looking for. VaughnH was testing using different KH's to determine what effect it had.

KH4 it is then.

James
 
Only just managed to get online ....

Just had a thought, the principle behind both the JBL and bulb drop checkers is the same, no? I.e. CO2 escapes from the water into a container which turns the reagent green? Its the reagent that goes in these that is the weak link? If so could all those people will existing CO2 test kits not just add the 4dKH solution with pH solution?
Just a thought to save people money!
Sam
Yes you certainly can use the JBL drop checker ..... I've now taken my JBL one and used the 4dKH solution and put it in my plant holding tank. This tank is running a much higher CO2 than normal, about 50ppm (No fish or Shrimp - so dont worry !) and the indicator is showing a far more yellow colour.

As George says, any similar piece of kit that uses an air gap should work just as good. In fact the JBL drop checker has a white plastic bit in the middle that makes the colour more visible

James:
Glad you're going to give this a try .... I'd be interested to see what results you get.
VaughnH did indeed try different KH solutions to indicate different concentrations of CO2.

Assuming you use a PH reagent that shows a bright green at a PH of 6.6, you'd get the following indications (from chuck's calc CO2 chart).

dKH=3 Green (PH6.6) = approx 22ppm
dKH=4 Green (PH6.6) = approx 30ppm
dKH=5 Green (PH6.6) = approx 38ppm

So by adjusting the KH of the reference solution you can monitor for different levels of CO2 to suit your individual needs for the tank.

Whilst I think this method seems more accurate than most others, it does depend on the accuracy of your KH solution and your judgement of the 'Green' on the PH scale, but you always have that with test kits that use water and a reagent. I think what you gain here is the knowledge that you have an accurate KH and that it is unaffected by anything else in the tank.

Al
 
For the color blind and there quite a few of them out there: use a Dissolved O2 membrane they use on O2 meters over a pH probe.

Add the KH reference solution instead of the KCL solution.
Now you have a very accurate method to emasure CO2 and if you make a very accurate DI/baling soda reference solution, both the pH and the KH are very accurate.

Response time for the CO2 ppm is now a few seconds to a minute or two.
Versus the drop checker which is about 2 hours and it's resolution is only colormetric.

See the thread on my site for this adaptation.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 
An answer which is of no use to anyone, but God I wish CO2 was an issue in the Power Generating Industry. We would be measuring it to two decimal places.
 
Firstly let me say thanks for posting this Al. I wanted to do something similar for TFF after reading Hoppy's (VaughanH's) threads on the Barr Report etc. but you've done a great job at summarising it all. Cheers mate :good:

With the Nutrafin KH test kit uses 1 drop of reagent equals 1dKH when testing with 5ml of
This is my only query. Unless the Nutrafin KH kits have changed then 1 drop reagent = 10ppm KH. This is obviously more accurate than 1 drop per dKH as there's 17.9ppm per degree. A minor niggle but for those with Nutrafin kits that may have lost/not read their instructions..........

Anyway, I'm off to order my glass drop checker from AE. :)
 
Cheers George mate !
Following instructions are easy ... especially when others have done all the hard work (VaughnH ect)

I cant actually remember what the Nutrafin instructions said .... I'll double check once I get home and update accordingly.

..... I'm planning another little experiment this weekend , assuming my Hydor inline heater arrives.
I'll keep you posted :hey:

Al
 

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