People Giving Bad Advice

[raptorrex]

Well, technically, who's to judge that something is blatently wrong?

but do you have any constructive ideas on how to deal with a minority of people giving poor advice?

thing is, do we need any? you can tell from the members reaction this is, simply, not something people are worried about

who is going to say advice is good or bad? (as OohFeeshy has said) its been pointed out, the hobby is more an art than science. as i have said, its up to the member to check up on any advice given

 

[JenCliBee]

One of the problems with the forum is a sort of opinion domino effect. It happens all the time- something that is an opinion, or sometimes even a completely wrong definite fact, is hijacked by multiple other members who have no expertise on the subject and repeated many, many times

This is true and I've seen happen myself. I strongly urge you to notify the moderators when you find this happening. Don't get in the middle of this kind of thing; just hit the report button and let the mod's take care of it. We try to be fair to all so sometimes we have to talk it over a bit, but we will do something or at least be on the lookout for these members who do it habitually. It's our goal to keep TFF a friendly forum where everyone can both learn new things and teach others.

Sometimes we find members posting information about fish they have never even kept themselves. We have some members who often Google a question and just post the answers they find. This is how inaccurate or totally incorrect information is spread. We all know of some sites that are questionable at best but someone posting after a casual search might not recognize that.

Isnt that the same as the mod system on any forum though?, some people that deserve to be a mod, dont get the job, some people that do get the job.. there could be many others that could do it just aswell.

We have to consider many factors when we select a new mod because it involves actually running the forum on a day to day basis. Expertise in one particular area of fishkeeping is only one of the things we have to take into consideration.

This isnt what was ment, it was a generalisation to ohhfeeshy's comment refering to this system justkia inposed..ie.. teh actual staus that some members have it but others who could basically do it, dont get the status.. ie the mod thing would and was an example of how it would be very similar situation

There are many members that have left becasue of these so called mis guiding users past and present and there are also members been banned for bringing up the subject of nothing been done about it.

No one has ever been banned from TFF because they called a problem to our attention. We have had some members go about doing this in the wrong way though. None of the mods are particularly responsive to the use of foul language to comment on a situation or the drama created when someone starts an, "I'm leaving" thread.

That's not strictly true, there have been members unnamed that have been banned for challenging the mods approach

on the other hand something needs to be done to stop this feeling of 'i cant be bothered to address wrong info' attitude that most experienced/long standing/very knowledgable members have got.

Some good members are sensible enough to know that getting into arguments online are hopeless. Once again, if you see something going on that needs mod's attention, please let us know.

Again not the point, the members are feeling that is it worth correcting with correct info to be told there wrong, isnt that what a forum is for, to give correct info, to help the OP out with there concerns. If members are feeling it aint worth replying due to a risk of been told there wrong, when there not. They OP just gets the info/advice from the person that has steered them wrong

But in the time I have been on this site I haven't seen the level of poor/inappropriate advice as is often getting posted at the moment

One of the ways we are working on to improve this is by contacting aquarium societies and fish clubs to encourage their members to join us here at TFF. Our efforts in this are just beginning but if we are successful we will be able to increase the number of experienced fishkeepers who post here. We are even offering small clubs who don't have their own forums, a place they can call their own on TFF. Please help us by using good forum etiquette and keeping things friendly and pleasant. This will benefit, not just newcomers, but everyone.

Im not sure where to start with this comment lol, just seems to me that it's acceptable to lose the established memebers here becasue you can just recruit new. It not only the expereicne that these memebers have it's the trusting and lokked upto in regard to correct info which is important, if i seen a new memebr come in and give good advice, yes it would be a ppriciated but if a long standing well established respected memebr gave the advice it makes people feel that whole much more comfortable taking it.



This is not getting at you inchworm and i appreiciate how hard a mods job can be from time to time, but when ever this sort of subject comes up, it seems that the replies from mods is a statement which has been agreed behind closed doors to actually deal with it.

 

[JenCliBee]

Well, technically, who's to judge that something is blatently wrong?

but do you have any constructive ideas on how to deal with a minority of people giving poor advice?

thing is, do we need any? you can tell from the members reaction this is, simply, not something people are worried about

who is going to say advice is good or bad? (as OohFeeshy has said) its been pointed out, the hobby is more an art than science. as i have said, its up to the member to check up on any advice given

sorry m8 but how can that actuallt be?, isnt this a dedicated fish forum?, isnt the advice when you come to a dedicated fish forum expected to be correct?, isnt that what the posters have done?, come here to check for advice from fellow fishkeepers?

I dont see any logic in what youve just said tbh,
the hobby may well be an art rather than science for the individual fishkeeper but science is still the main part.

At the end of the day wrong advice in general is wrong, isnt a factual answer given better than actual experience in most cases?.

Just a quick example off the top of my head, ich.... if i said i had ich in my tank and i raised the temp to 36 degrees and it disapeared. Is that correct info even though it's a posibilty it would work?. It may work but what stress has been casued to the fish at such high temperatures?..... see advice is given and it may work, doesnt mean the advice is good advice, actual factula advice is much better to minimise stress/problems on every level not just to treat the problem in hand.

 

[Inchworm]

Im not sure where to start with this comment lol, just seems to me that it's acceptable to lose the established memebers here becasue you can just recruit new. quote]

No, FishyJake13, it's absolutely not acceptable to us. We value all our members. That's why, except in rare cases of outright trolling, we give the members several warnings, usually with the intermediate steps of Mod's Preview or temporary suspension, before any action is taken to ban a person.

This is not getting at you inchworm and i appreiciate how hard a mods job can be from time to time, but when ever this sort of subject comes up, it seems that the replies from mods is a statement which has been agreed behind closed doors to actually deal with it.

Thank you for recognizing our situation. It's just that we do discuss matters before something like suspension or banning of a member takes place. We have to work as a team because this is such a large forum. More often than not, one of us will speak up on behalf of a troublesome member and point out the ways he/she has been an asset to the forum. Still, we do have to keep order and maintain the standards we have set for appropriate behavior.

 

[indigoj]

I think very obviously 'wrong' advice (like 'yes it is fine to keep 4 Oscars in a 50 litre tank'- as an extreme example) should perhaps be edited by a mod with the statement 'this advice is not in keeping with the size and temperament of the fish concerned' or something like that.

Something to also consider would be appointing subject experts - similar to what was suggested with moderator supporters - people with a track record of excellent advice and experience on a particular topic. Not with mod powers but with a title so people know they are the 'resident expert'and that their advice is likely to be accurate and based on personal experience.

 

[aly_starh]

I have been watching this topic and i agree

People who give consistant good advice, should be 'labeled' as it were, so we know who to ask, or whos answer to take.

 

[Inchworm]

I think very obviously 'wrong' advice (like 'yes it is fine to keep 4 Oscars in a 50 litre tank'- as an extreme example) should perhaps be edited by a mod with the statement 'this advice is not in keeping with the size and temperament of the fish concerned' or something like that.

But that's not our role here. We don't appoint some members as resident experts for the same reason. If we did, we might as well just point everyone in the direction of the pinned topics and let it go at that. Rather, we are an open forum where some other member can, not only point out why certain advice is not correct but, perhaps more importantly, explain why. If there is reason to debate the point, that can be discussed as well.

Even some of the less knowledgeable or newer to fishkeeping members can ask questions about what was said and that is very helpful when it comes to advancing the discussion. And after all, that's what a forum is all about.

 

[Haych]

no offence, i dont think thats a good idea at all, and it would make ALOT of work for the mods to keep changing.

i personally think that alot of time, it comes down to common sense, good advice and being sensible enough to spot where there is bad advice.

usually, more than one person replies ANYWAY, so you can usually see the majority rule.

i also think, that not always facts are best, sometimes listening to someones experiences can help too.

i have been keeping fush for 10 years, and the way i do things, as i work VERY old fashioned as its how i was taught, i would be seriously flamed if i gave ALL my tricks away, but it still works! sometimes hearing a view is better and can be more fun than someone rattling off the same statement over and over.

but this is what got me on my post earlier. i made a suggestion for something, and in the end it became a war of "my opinion is and ONLY is..."

i enjoy reading DIFFERENT opinions. i enjoy reading other peoples experiences. i thought that was what TFF was about

just my two cents

 

[OohFeeshy]

sorry m8 but how can that actuallt be?, isnt this a dedicated fish forum?, isnt the advice when you come to a dedicated fish forum expected to be correct?, isnt that what the posters have done?, come here to check for advice from fellow fishkeepers?

I dont see any logic in what youve just said tbh,
the hobby may well be an art rather than science for the individual fishkeeper but science is still the main part.

Mhm... Yes and no. Although science is the backbone (in the form of the bacteria and water chemistry, mainly), science can't tell you how many guppies you can keep in a tank or what's the minimum tank size for an oscar. To a degree you can include science in it, but not to the point where an answer is 'definitely right' or 'definitely wrong'.

I'm not exactly saying that everyone's opinions on a subject should be treated with equal regard, but I also don't think you can single out people who are 'always right' (because in essence that's what a separate group would imply, at least to new people) because they're not. This is turning into "The Thread Of Examples", but if there was a thread about, iunno, water changes. Someone in the 'elite group' would probably say, dechlorinate and try to keep the temperature similar. Whereas I might say dechlorinator isn't necessarily required, and just hose in a load of cold water. Because I wasn't in the group, that would instantly make what I've said 'wrong' when it isn't, and lead to all sorts of jolly times where everyone else would think 'oh, the other person is in that special group, so they must be right and this other person must be an idiot to think something different'. See where this would lead? Not down a good road.

 

[JenCliBee]

sorry m8 but how can that actuallt be?, isnt this a dedicated fish forum?, isnt the advice when you come to a dedicated fish forum expected to be correct?, isnt that what the posters have done?, come here to check for advice from fellow fishkeepers?

I dont see any logic in what youve just said tbh,
the hobby may well be an art rather than science for the individual fishkeeper but science is still the main part.

Mhm... Yes and no. Although science is the backbone (in the form of the bacteria and water chemistry, mainly), science can't tell you how many guppies you can keep in a tank or what's the minimum tank size for an oscar. To a degree you can include science in it, but not to the point where an answer is 'definitely right' or 'definitely wrong'.

I'm not exactly saying that everyone's opinions on a subject should be treated with equal regard, but I also don't think you can single out people who are 'always right' (because in essence that's what a separate group would imply, at least to new people) because they're not. This is turning into "The Thread Of Examples", but if there was a thread about, iunno, water changes. Someone in the 'elite group' would probably say, dechlorinate and try to keep the temperature similar. Whereas I might say dechlorinator isn't necessarily required, and just hose in a load of cold water. Because I wasn't in the group, that would instantly make what I've said 'wrong' when it isn't, and lead to all sorts of jolly times where everyone else would think 'oh, the other person is in that special group, so they must be right and this other person must be an idiot to think something different'. See where this would lead? Not down a good road.

I couldnt agree more and the fact that no ONE persons advice can be completely accurate in the sense, the example you gave would lead back to science, yes i know plent of people that dechlol and plenty that dont, the ones that dont have just as healthy fish as the one's that do. However that would be where the science comes in, Long term effects on fish from possible elements in the water against the long term effects on using dechlol. See at the end of the day science will in most cases be there to finally give the FACTS, just becasue it works for one doesnt mean it work for another.. and thats with both sides of the coin. But becasue one has no ill effects by doing it there way, the next person may do by doing it in that same way and that leads to scientific evidence to prove the facts on what issues could or potential do arise. So facts really should always be given above your own personal experience. This really is an example on the water side etc etc but in most cases it would work on most sides of fishkeeping.

 

[JustKia]

I think parts of my suggestion have been misunderstood - at least the concept.
It's not about an "elitist" group who are "always right", rather a recognition of people who consistently and positively contribute, people who help and are knowlegable - that doesn't mean someone who knows one way of doing something - it means people who know how to help others in varied ways.

Still, that was one suggestion (just because it was a system that worked very well elsewhere, does not mean it would work here or anywhere else, for that matter) that I made with regards to dealing with the issue of poor/inappropriate advice.
This isn't simply a case of "I think they are wrong" or judging someone. It's a case of people who don't know the basics, don't understand the principle of the nitrogen cycle, don't understand basics of the hobby - then giving advice to people on much more complex points of the hobby.

So, without pointing fingers, it's still MY opinion that it would be beneficial if there was some way for people to be informed when advice is likely to be detrimental to the goal of the person asking a question.
Heck, yes in an ideal world people would research til them could research no more, but the fact is that this forum IS the research for many.
Either these people aren't being challenged (because those that could/would don't want the argument) and/or the "advice giver" simply restates what they have said is right. It's never given as their opinion - but as "it's this or nothing".
I'm just going to hope that it all dies back, that the "numpties" giving the poor advice get bored and give up.

 

[rdd1952]

As has been mentioned, post count does not equal knowledge BUT, most people with high post counts have been here quite a while and are more knowledgeable. The best way to judge a members knowledge is to read their other posts to see how they express themselves and if their other posts have been challenged as incorrect. In the long run, members that give bad advice (rarely is it willful but mainly just a lack of knowledge in general and repeating what they have heard before) won't last long. They will either get tired of being told they are wrong and leave or they will learn and begin to give better advice.

As far as knowledgeable members leaving, that's a normal thing. People's lives change and they move on. Younger members in particular are more likely to go that route. They get into the hobby as kids but after 4 or 5 years, they have moved on to something else or their parents move house and they have to get rid of their tanks. Members come and go and while we never want to lose knowledge, it's inevitable and I think totally unrelated to anyone giving bad advice.

Back to the original question/thought, it would be very difficult to find enough "expert" members to keep each section covered at all times. And those members would always have to have an open mind so that new ideas and methods wouldn't just get shot down based on how it's always been done. The best way to make sure that the OP gets the help they need on a thread and doesn't fall for poor advice is to simply reinforce any good advice given. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you agree with a previous poster if you indeed think they gave good advice.

 

[JustKia]

Back to the original question/thought, it would be very difficult to find enough "expert" members to keep each section covered at all times.

Just to clarify - I didn't say anything about finding "expert" members

 

[Haych]

So, without pointing fingers, it's still MY opinion that it would be beneficial if there was some way for people to be informed

and you are entitled to your opinion, i myself dont see it your way, but i dont believe in saying your wrong. everyone HAS a different opinion, and it makes things better

And those members would always have to have an open mind so that new ideas and methods wouldn't just get shot down based on how it's always been done.

my thoughts exactly. everything changes, a long time friend of mine (like a step dad) kept fish alot differently way back then, and would not know how to do half the stuff required now. times change and methods change

 

[raptorrex]

sorry m8 but how can that actuallt be?, isnt this a dedicated fish forum?, isnt the advice when you come to a dedicated fish forum expected to be correct?, isnt that what the posters have done?, come here to check for advice from fellow fishkeepers?

I dont see any logic in what youve just said tbh,
the hobby may well be an art rather than science for the individual fishkeeper but science is still the main part.

At the end of the day wrong advice in general is wrong, isnt a factual answer given better than actual experience in most cases?.

no M8(whatever that means). this is a dedicated fish forum. the advice given, is the views of the poster. its up to YOU to check the validity of any advice. and without doubt, nothing to do with the Mods.


to me, this whole thread is about people not wanting to do research on their hobby. rather just mimicking the actions of others. or, and i dont think it was the intention, to crate a group that can say "I'm right", whatever others say. neither will help people do "better" at the hobby.