People Giving Bad Advice

[JustKia]

I know it's a forum and I know people should do their own research as well as compare advice from various replies they get to their posts but...
There are a few people usign this site recently who are frequently giving poor advice.

I've been known to go against the grain, and people pushing boundaries and trying new stuff is great - so long as they are prepared for it to go wrong. That's not the kind of stuff I'm talking about.
It's the plainly incorrect adivce that a few people seem to be giving all the time at the moment.

Then you have people like Wilder who are the most helpful and wonderful people.
Yet how are inexperienced people going to discern that some people are not giving the best advice?

I can appreciate that older members can become bored of the same questions over time.
Maybe there could be some sort of recognition of experienced, trustworthy members - that doesn't mean they have to be members for 10 years or have 50,000 posts, just that they have shown that they contribute positively and consistently.
They would have to be nominated and approved and then maybe they get a different icon and title - TFF advice team or something like?

 

[OohFeeshy]

This sort of thing has come up several times before, the general consensus being it wouldn't really work for quite a few reasons (you can look them up if you like, there's loads of topics). Since it's a minority that are being numpties, it's down to everyone else to find the rubbish posts and correct them. Really, the whole of the hobby is a giant opinion, either you go with the majority or the better informed minority.

Related to above, since it is such an opinion-based hobby, there's no reason to assume that whoever this group are will be right also, and you can't exclude people who have an opinion you don't like. To give an example- there's usually a few topics around where people only have a couple of schooling fish for whatever reason, usually because the others have died. It's typical practice to then have about twenty people saying 'that fish needs to be kept in groups, go and buy more'. Myself, I don't think it's nessecary if the small number have been alone for a while, they establish a heirachy within the tank as a whole and actually appear much more interactive rather than mindless members of the school. This is based on several past experiences, it's not wrong, and someone else may not agree with me but you can't classify me as 'wrong' and someone else as 'right' when there's really no such thing.

 

[JustKia]

I'm not talking about "opinions", like I say I've gone against the grain. Pushing boundaries and trying new stuff is good - it's how we ended up where we are.
It's the blatantly "wrong" stuff, stuff that is likely to cause harm to your fish. Sort of along the lines of "yeah, that 5litre bowl is fine for 5-6 clown loaches" (well, not a real example but along those lines)

I'm not suggesting we tag people as "stupid" but that we recognise those that give positive advice time and again, over and over. Which in turn helps those with little experience know who is giving them the more (ugh can't think of the word I want)... more commonly correct, experienced (arrgh I know what I mean, but words fail me).

OK as an example back in the days when I was a senior mod on a very big health forum, the mods had their jobs, but we also had a team of "supporters". These supporters did not have any mod priveleges or such but were people who had "proven" themselves to contribute positively, shown they had experience in which ever field they were a supporter and that they consistenly gave good advice.
Everyone else still posted as normal.

But while Joe Bloggs may have one experience that is different to the norm, Sam Smith (Supporter) would be giving you known facts.
Everyone is going to have one or more experiences that go against "the norm", it can just be hard to separate the fact from opinion when you are inexperienced.
A high post count doesn't mean that person is experienced or giving good advice - it just means they post a lot.

 

[raptorrex]

 

A high post count doesn't mean that person is experienced or giving good advice - it just means they post a lot.

indeed so. you need to research the advice given. and that's when you find who is giving good advice, and who is not. abdicating, a members, own responsibility, by relying on an icon or rep rating, leaves only them to blame, if advice is wrong.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Well, technically, who's to judge that something is blatently wrong? To take your example, it's not like you can exactly say it's incorrect. It's not an opinion that anyone agrees with, but if you take it to a less extreme example things get more complicated. Take the betta forum- on one thread you'll see people saying the minimum tank size for a betta is 1g, 2.5g, 5g, 10g... None of those is really any more valid than another, but if you throw in some sort of extra group then perfectly good advice is dismissed simply because for whatever reason they aren't in that group.

In general everyone gives 'consistently good advice'. There are a few who don't, but the good outweigh the bad manyfold. If such a system was implemented I can guarentee that some people who had it really don't deserve it, and many people who deserve it won't have it.

 

[JustKia]

Well, technically, who's to judge that something is blatently wrong?

Separation of facts from opinion.
Opinions are only good for the person who experienced it. Facts are facts.

You don't agree with what I'm saying and that's fine, but do you have any constructive ideas on how to deal with a minority of people giving poor advice?
Maybe they'll get bored and go away.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I've already said- in general, if in a thread someone gives advice that isn't wonderful, then there are plenty of other people who read the thread, notice, and correct them. I know it's irritating to read the posts of idiots, but since the forum has such high traffic, it's unlikely something definitely wrong will slip through the net. If it does, that implies that nobody else has read the thread, in which case having the extra group won't make any difference anyway.

 

[Inchworm]

Since fishkeeping is as much an art as a science, there are often more than one right answer for any given question. That's what makes it continue to be interesting year after year.

Separation of facts from opinion.
Opinions are only good for the person who experienced it. Facts are facts.

In recent times that has become a problem too. A scientific study is only as reliable as the quality of the documentation included in it and the number of times it has been replicated with the same results. One study does not a "fact" make.

In general everyone gives 'consistently good advice'. There are a few who don't, but the good outweigh the bad manyfold.

Take the betta forum- on one thread you'll see people saying the minimum tank size for a betta is 1g, 2.5g, 5g, 10g... None of those is really any more valid than another, but if you throw in some sort of extra group then perfectly good advice is dismissed simply because for whatever reason they aren't in that group.

We probably have fewer problems with people giving bad advice than with members forcing their opinions on others. The moderators have recently been discussing this excellent quote from Wikipedia:

"Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree.

When any advice, be it good, bad, or otherwise, appears to be getting carried to an extreme, please click on the report button. There's lots of room for productive discussion and comparisons of experience and knowledge on this forum, but when one member or faction seems to be coming back to dominate a thread or section so that other options may not be being fully explored, it interferes with the OP's information gathering and everyone else's enjoyment. When you see this kind of posting, please contact the mods and let us sort it out.

 

[OohFeeshy]

One of the problems with the forum is a sort of opinion domino effect. It happens all the time- something that is an opinion, or sometimes even a completely wrong definite fact, is hijacked by multiple other members who have no expertise on the subject and repeated many, many times. This is things like 'stunted fish organs carry on growing', 'this fish species can only live in a mature tank', '1" per gallon' and so on. If you deify certain members, this is in danger of happening on an even larger scale, to the point where if you disagree with what that person says, you end up vilified.

 

[JustKia]

I certainly agree that one study doesn't make a fact.
Opinions are simply that - mostly everyone has a differing one on most things - that's life.
I just hope that the recent flux of poor and/or inappropriate advice can die down.

In relative terms I'm still fairly new on this site comapared to some and I'm certainly new compared to a lot of people in this hobby. But in the time I have been on this site I haven't seen the level of poor/inappropriate advice as is often getting posted at the moment - and that is mostly coming from a couple of individuals.

 

[JenCliBee]

In general everyone gives 'consistently good advice'. There are a few who don't, but the good outweigh the bad manyfold. If such a system was implemented I can guarentee that some people who had it really don't deserve it, and many people who deserve it won't have it.

Isnt that the same as the mod system on any forum though?, some people that deserve to be a mod, dont get the job, some people that do get the job.. there could be many others that could do it just aswell.

Dismissing justkia's actually idea isnt valid when the actuall mod and recruicing is also based on the same system. Would you not elect a new mod becasue someone else could do the job just aswell?


I dont think the idea would work, but i also dont think it's that bad an idea.

There are many members that have left becasue of these so called mis guiding users past and present and there are also members been banned for bringing up the subject of nothing been done about it.

Where is the happy medium?, would you still have the same approach if it was 50/50 good and bad advice, Probably not, you would say something needed to be done.

The constant lack of the original/long standing/well knowledged members not posting on this forum, weather due to some (past/present) members been blantantly ignorant and obusive has been very noticable recently. You look around and get members that are new, are new to the hobby and are mostly hear for help. The few more respected members have disapeared becasue of certain members just been allowed to continue with bad advice and when corrected for it, they give abuse and even more wrong advice... with nothing done about it.

The new members (unexperienced) compared to members either banned or forced to leave are having to give advice which they have read, not understood and portrayed it wrong. Resulting in what justkia is actually trying to say.

Idea would be listen to members and actually try and keep the actual experienced much more knowledgable members here. At some point you will only have the members coming through that seem to know what there talking about by reading the forum and posts and not from experience like the more knowlesgable members that have left.

Hope that made sense , it did in my head anyways.

 

[JustKia]

Yes, that is along the lines of what I was meaning.

The poor/inappropriate advice isn't malicious, it's just well-meaning people who don't know any better and those that do know better probably move on because the argument that will ensue if they challenge the advice isn't worth the hassle.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I never said the idea was *bad*, just that it's pretty impossible to put into place in a fair way.

As someone who has been here a pretty long time, and probably knows quite a bit about the mindset of those more experienced members who have left (chat crew, yo), I can say that something like this wouldn't make people more likely to stay. In fact, I would even say the opposite was true.

 

[JenCliBee]

I never said the idea was *bad*, just that it's pretty impossible to put into place in a fair way.

As someone who has been here a pretty long time, and probably knows quite a bit about the mindset of those more experienced members who have left (chat crew, yo), I can say that something like this wouldn't make people more likely to stay. In fact, I would even say the opposite was true.

Thats not what i said, i said "I dont think the idea would work, but i also dont think it's that bad an idea."

I never said any idea of the sort would make members stay and i never said that it wouldnt make members leave, what i said was... the fact of the members that have left, or dont post so much have done so because of the problems that justkia was trying to address.

Yes you will always have the members that have been outlined, you do in all forums not just this one, however you have to find the line between what is acceptabe and can be corrected to what is continuingly happening making more knowledgable memebers feel the need to not actually address the wrong comments or leave because of the constantness because they feel a backlash would happen.

Ive had it not so long ago with a member that isnt new (so yes it's not just new members that do it) and backed up my claim to me been right but yet i got abused within the thread and told i was a numpty and i was wrong. I wasnt lol!!!

So yes i can see your point that the system probably wouldnt work, on the other hand something needs to be done to stop this feeling of 'i cant be bothered to address wrong info' attitude that most experienced/long standing/very knowledgable members have got.

It's going to be the ultimate downfall like it has been on so many other forums... plecofantics is one of them forums and i think most who have used it for a fair while would agree.

 

[Inchworm]

One of the problems with the forum is a sort of opinion domino effect. It happens all the time- something that is an opinion, or sometimes even a completely wrong definite fact, is hijacked by multiple other members who have no expertise on the subject and repeated many, many times

This is true and I've seen happen myself. I strongly urge you to notify the moderators when you find this happening. Don't get in the middle of this kind of thing; just hit the report button and let the mod's take care of it. We try to be fair to all so sometimes we have to talk it over a bit, but we will do something or at least be on the lookout for these members who do it habitually. It's our goal to keep TFF a friendly forum where everyone can both learn new things and teach others.

Sometimes we find members posting information about fish they have never even kept themselves. We have some members who often Google a question and just post the answers they find. This is how inaccurate or totally incorrect information is spread. We all know of some sites that are questionable at best but someone posting after a casual search might not recognize that.

Isnt that the same as the mod system on any forum though?, some people that deserve to be a mod, dont get the job, some people that do get the job.. there could be many others that could do it just aswell.

We have to consider many factors when we select a new mod because it involves actually running the forum on a day to day basis. Expertise in one particular area of fishkeeping is only one of the things we have to take into consideration.

There are many members that have left becasue of these so called mis guiding users past and present and there are also members been banned for bringing up the subject of nothing been done about it.

No one has ever been banned from TFF because they called a problem to our attention. We have had some members go about doing this in the wrong way though. None of the mods are particularly responsive to the use of foul language to comment on a situation or the drama created when someone starts an, "I'm leaving" thread.

on the other hand something needs to be done to stop this feeling of 'i cant be bothered to address wrong info' attitude that most experienced/long standing/very knowledgable members have got.

Some good members are sensible enough to know that getting into arguments online are hopeless. Once again, if you see something going on that needs mod's attention, please let us know.

But in the time I have been on this site I haven't seen the level of poor/inappropriate advice as is often getting posted at the moment

One of the ways we are working on to improve this is by contacting aquarium societies and fish clubs to encourage their members to join us here at TFF. Our efforts in this are just beginning but if we are successful we will be able to increase the number of experienced fishkeepers who post here. We are even offering small clubs who don't have their own forums, a place they can call their own on TFF. Please help us by using good forum etiquette and keeping things friendly and pleasant. This will benefit, not just newcomers, but everyone.