Particular order in which to get different livebearer species?

[Yarkii]

I am currently cycling a 220L tank and hope to have Mollies, Platys, Guppies & Swortails. I'm still to work out the numbers I can safely stock etc. I was wondering whether there might be a particular order in which to get the different livebearer species, which could influence it being a more harmonious community tank?

E.g. if one species tended to be more territorial than others, I'd stock it last, so the others aren't entering their established turf.

I was also curious: would it be best to find one fish store I like best and buy all my fish from them? Or does that not really matter?

Thank you.


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[DutchMuch]

Your right. But out of the listed above I don't think those are necessarily territorial imo. But your correct if there is a semi aggressive one put it in last as the others already have claimed territory.

 

[Yarkii]

Your right. But out of the listed above I don't think those are necessarily territorial imo. But your correct if there is a semi aggressive one put it in last as the others already have claimed territory.

Thanks DutchMuch.

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[Byron]

I am currently cycling a 220L tank and hope to have Mollies, Platys, Guppies & Swortails. I'm still to work out the numbers I can safely stock etc. I was wondering whether there might be a particular order in which to get the different livebearer species, which could influence it being a more harmonious community tank?

E.g. if one species tended to be more territorial than others, I'd stock it last, so the others aren't entering their established turf.

I was also curious: would it be best to find one fish store I like best and buy all my fish from them? Or does that not really matter?

Thank you.


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First off, you need to decide if you want the fish breeding or not. A female livebearer once impregnated (which could be long before you acquire her as this can occur within weeks of their birth) can produce several batches of fry without males present. If both males and females are present, this will result in hundreds of fry about once every month with several females in the tank. So you need to have a plan for the fry to be removed immediately, sorted, and then...whatever. Also, with male and female, you need more females than males of the species so the amorous driving of the males does not unduly harm the females. Within the confines of any aquarium this can lead to stress and death of the females. And some species cross-breed, like the platy and swordtail.

Males only of livebearers will avoid the fry situation.

Swordtails can be somewhat "aggressive" with perhaps "feisty" a better description. So if you want say two or three male swordtails, acquire them at the same time so they settle in together. Platy and molly is less problematic in this regard. I would also add the swordtails last.

Acquiring fish from the one store can help avoid disease from a different store/source. If the initial store is reliable, it is best to stay with them. Loyal customers often get privileges in times of problems too, like easy return of fish if necessary.

Byron.

 

[Yarkii]

First off, you need to decide if you want the fish breeding or not. A female livebearer once impregnated (which could be long before you acquire her as this can occur within weeks of their birth) can produce several batches of fry without males present. If both males and females are present, this will result in hundreds of fry about once every month with several females in the tank. So you need to have a plan for the fry to be removed immediately, sorted, and then...whatever. Also, with male and female, you need more females than males of the species so the amorous driving of the males does not unduly harm the females. Within the confines of any aquarium this can lead to stress and death of the females. And some species cross-breed, like the platy and swordtail.

Males only of livebearers will avoid the fry situation.

Swordtails can be somewhat "aggressive" with perhaps "feisty" a better description. So if you want say two or three male swordtails, acquire them at the same time so they settle in together. Platy and molly is less problematic in this regard. I would also add the swordtails last.

Acquiring fish from the one store can help avoid disease from a different store/source. If the initial store is reliable, it is best to stay with them. Loyal customers often get privileges in times of problems too, like easy return of fish if necessary.

Byron.

Thank you again Byron!

I will stick with a male-only tank, as I think setting this up properly and keeping everyone alive and healthy is more than enough to take on as a beginner. I don't have a plan for what to do with fry, so will avoid that.

I'll add swordtails after the other species, and all swordtails at the same time. Thank you.

There is one LFS not too far away that has been pretty good so far and has lovely, clean & healthy-looking (to my beginner eye) tanks, plants & fish. I think I'll see if it is possible to get all my fish from there.

The tank is in cycle, so it'll be a few weeks before I can put fish in there. The QT tank will be a few weeks behind the main tank. I'm following the method in the cycling section on these forums (except that I put some ViviD bacteria powder in with the first dose of ammonia). Once it is cycled, can I definitely put the mollies, platys & guppies in straight away?

If I find any endlers, are they too little to be in there if I also have 'feisty' swordtails?

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[Byron]

The tank is in cycle, so it'll be a few weeks before I can put fish in there. The QT tank will be a few weeks behind the main tank. I'm following the method in the cycling section on these forums (except that I put some ViviD bacteria powder in with the first dose of ammonia). Once it is cycled, can I definitely put the mollies, platys & guppies in straight away?

No, fish should be added slowly, meaning not all together. You don't want to overwhelm the system. But here you do have a larger tank (some are working with 10g and 20g where this can be a real issue) and for example adding three swordtails (last) would not be an issue. Nor would a few platy, and the mollies.

If I find any endlers, are they too little to be in there if I also have 'feisty' swordtails?

I've had swordtails, and I presently have Endlers. I've never kept them together, so those with experience doing so may have more to offer; but I would not go this route. Swordtails attain 4-5 inches in aquaria, though 6 inches is possible, with females the slightly larger over males. Given their propensity to canibalism, I would not hold out much hope for Endlers. My female Endlers (full grown) would likely survive, but I can't see my adult males lasting, they are tiny.

 

[Yarkii]

Given their propensity to canibalism, I would not hold out much hope

Oh dear. That certainly does sound a little more than feisty!

I 'm sure I'll be happy with a few each of mollies, platys, guppies and swordtails. I need to revisit the calculator I found somewhere that had info re how many inches or cm of adult size fish is okay to have depending on the surface area of water. Then I need to decide how many of each type of fish. If I had to go light on anything, it would be the swordtails.

No, fish should be added slowly, meaning not all together. You don't want to overwhelm the system.

Thank you. I thought to ask because in the fishless cycling guide on these forums, two paragraphs before the chart showing how ammonia, NO3 & NO2 should roughly pattern, it says:

"A major benefit of this fishless cycling method is that you can now fully stock your tank in one go."

I'm happy to go slowly, and get to know each little group of fish that goes in.


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[thrujenseyes]

"A major benefit of this fishless cycling method is that you can now fully stock your tank in one go."

Oh ya know...I also remember reading that! Maybe someone can change that wording!

 

[Yarkii]

Oh ya know...I also remember reading that! Maybe someone can change that wording!

Yeah - I've been really pleased with the amazing advice on here, and the stuff left by admins etc seems really good, but I did wonder about that, as it's one of those things that I've read conflicting advice about.



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[thrujenseyes]

I followed the cycling instructions to the T, but I also had a thread going at the time with all of my inane questions because I had a really tough time understanding so much of it and everyone was so very helpful!
I guess I didn't really have much to consider when stocking my tank because it's so tiny.
But yours is such a great size that fully stocked would certainly throw off the balance.
**I even made a life-size chart and had it on the wall behind my desk so I could mark down all of my numbers and such.
I really dorked out, but it all helped me understand**

 

[Yarkii]

I followed the cycling instructions to the T, but I also had a thread going at the time with all of my inane questions because I had a really tough time understanding so much of it and everyone was so very helpful!
I guess I didn't really have much to consider when stocking my tank because it's so tiny.
But yours is such a great size that fully stocked would certainly throw off the balance.
**I even made a life-size chart and had it on the wall behind my desk so I could mark down all of my numbers and such.
I really dorked out, but it all helped me understand**

How funny! When I was originally going to buy a smaller tank, and came across a calculator, I got all excited and started trying to find info at the same time regarding how big different species grow, if they like to be with a few friends, which fish are compatible with which, etc. I had to throw it all out the door once Byron et al alerted me to the importance of having fish that are compatible with your water parameters, and I now also have a bigger tank. I'm looking forward to working it out again, for just four species this time.

A part of me still secretly hopes I'll come across something interesting who can happily co-exist with my livebearers.

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[Byron]

Oh dear. That certainly does sound a little more than feisty!

Most all fish are canabalistic when fry are present. With livebearers, many of the fry will get eaten by the adult fish. Some often wonder why this is not a problem in nature, or the species would never survive. But an aquarium is a very artificial environment, no matter how hard we try to "replicate" nature. Even the largest home aquarium is still a thimble by comparison to the natural habitat. And so many fish confined to such a small space places pressures on the fish that generally would not occur in their habitat.

My Endlers are in a planted 20g tank, so I see more fry than I would if I had them in say a 5 gallon tank, simply because in the 20g the fry are well able to "hide" among all the floating plants and moss and the adults have better things to do than go searching for them.

Thank you. I thought to ask because in the fishless cycling guide on these forums, two paragraphs before the chart showing how ammonia, NO3 & NO2 should roughly pattern, it says:

"A major benefit of this fishless cycling method is that you can now fully stock your tank in one go."

I'm happy to go slowly, and get to know each little group of fish that goes in.

This is relative. When you cycle a tank, you are establishing a colony of Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira species bacteria; the first consumes ammonia and produces nitrite, the second consumes nitrite and produces nitrate. These bacteria multiply relative to the amount of ammonia/nitrite present, which will initially depend upon how you cycled with ammonia. They do not die off if these levels decrease, so normally there should be no problem adding fish. But some people may be inclined to add too many, past the capability of the bacteria, and this is where problems may occur. I have to keep reminding myself when I post that not only are you (the OP) reading this, but other members--some of whom may not have much experience yet--are also reading this, and may jump to the wrong conclusion. Which is one reason I generally explain in more detail, as then others are more likely to grasp the situation.

Byron.

 

[Yarkii]

Most all fish are canabalistic when fry are present.

Thank you, Byron. Everything you've said here makes sense to me.

This is relative. When you cycle a tank, you are establishing a colony of Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira species bacteria; the first consumes ammonia and produces nitrite, the second consumes nitrite and produces nitrate. These bacteria multiply relative to the amount of ammonia/nitrite present, which will initially depend upon how you cycled with ammonia. They do not die off if these levels decrease, so normally there should be no problem adding fish.

Is it possible that, having added some bacteria powder with the first dose of ammonia, I might have proportionally more nitrospira than nitrosomonas?

At Day 13 yesterday (5 days after adding Dose 2 of ammonia, a full dose), the nitrate was at or over 40ppm, but the nitrite seemed to be stuck around 2.0ppm for six days straight, and ammonia dropped for the second time to zero. (Prior to adding Dose 2, ammonia dropped to zero, then rose to 2.0 after Dose #2.)

For a while the nitrite looked like it was between 2.0 & 5.0 but closer to 2.0, and now it's more similar to just 2.0.

I didn't measure nitrate until Day 8 (it was 10+ppm then), so I don't know when it first appeared, but in five days it has shot up from 10+ppm to 40+ppm, whereas in that graph in the cycling guide on these forums it rises from zero to 35 across 28 days.

I have to keep reminding myself when I post that not only are you (the OP) reading this, but other members--some of whom may not have much experience yet--are also reading this, and may jump to the wrong conclusion. Which is one reason I generally explain in more detail, as then others are more likely to grasp the situation.

I absolutely appreciate the way that you clearly explain everything, Byron. Amidst a sea of self-proclaimed experts in the fish-keeping world, who confidently claim "this is the answer" without any explanation, your detailed responses are so extremely helpful.


Jacqui


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[Byron]

Is it possible that, having added some bacteria powder with the first dose of ammonia, I might have proportionally more nitrospira than nitrosomonas?

Yes you could, but that is not a problem. Once these species of bacteria appear, they will increase relative to the level of "food" they have, ammonia and nitrite respectively. If this food should reduce, the respective bacteria do not die off but go into a sort of suspended state or hibernation, to use words that get across the concept. They can remain alive in this state for some time, even months, depending upon other factors. If the food should increase beyond the existing bacteria, they will then begin to multiply.

I don't see any problems with the numbers you posted. I've never done a cycle using artificial ammonia, as I always have fast-growing plants in my new tanks. But it seems you're on the right track.

I absolutely appreciate the way that you clearly explain everything, Byron. Amidst a sea of self-proclaimed experts in the fish-keeping world, who confidently claim "this is the answer" without any explanation, your detailed responses are so extremely helpful.

Thank you, very kind. I've always felt that not knowing why/how means one can be tempted to ignore the issue. A fish aquarium is probably the most complex hobby there is, because we are dealing with a number of natural processes within a very confined--and artificial--space, and even one little thing can set in motion a huge chain reaction. And the extreme close relationship of a fish to the water can have catastrophic results before we know it. This was driven home to me a couple years ago by two marine biologists and a microbiologist who were advising me on a mysterious problem in one tank. A lesson learned, and one not to be forgotten. We never stop learning, and if we think we can, we are in the wrong hobby.

Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

We never stop learning, and if we think we can, we are in the wrong hobby.

This should be on posters and t shirts and every fish forum across the globe.