Open Cichlid Forum All Welcome

[Murrayjane]

I understand that everyone wants and in fact is helping me. In no way am I using that youtube video to try and justify permanently keeping multiple aggressive cichlids in a tank. I was merely presenting that temporarily, inside both retail and home aquariums, people will mix their fish together until something more practical can be done about it.

So far, the only real options I have been given is to return over half of the fish I own. I paid quite a lot of money for them and I have also grown very fond to each cichlid's individual behavior and color. Now, this is not so much so that I would be unwilling to rationally act if there was any physically aggression, but enough to keep myself motivated in trying to enable their co-existence. Usually while they are still young, not too many problems will occur and I know that there will be, however, that one day when a fish will get shredded and THAT is what is important to prevent. So far in this tank, I have seen no physical contact between the fish. Believe me, I have been carefully observing them throughout each day since they have been brought into my home. I have always and will continue to put my fish first over expenses and inconveniences, but realistically, these cichlids will be alright for a short while. Whether I need to include a tank divider or take some other form of measure, there is a way for it to work.

I just need to keep researching.

Wills, I think you are very intelligent when it comes to cichlid fish keeping (best so far IMO), but even your suggestion of using yoyo loaches proves that aside from all the general rules of compatibility, it is only and always relevant to the individual fish and aquarium. My yoyo's are pretty big (near the same size as the other cichlids) and as soon as I put one in, they went after it like a fat kid on a cupcake. Fortunately, it was removed before any harm was done.

Again, I am not using this to try and justify keeping multiple monsters in the same cage. I am saying that through this experience I will see first hand if it will work or not. People have told me their stories of mishaps, but others (for instance, my retail fish keeper and on different forums) have given me messages of inspiration as their multi south american cichlid tanks have worked fine. They recommend me to just wait until they grow and by then you can make the decision to either expand the tank, or diminish my numbers.

RECAP

1. My original question on this forum was to find out how much tank space I would need to house the original given amount of african/american cichlids. (livingston, 2 peacocks, Green Terror, EB Dempsey, 2 Firemouths, Jewel, and Jaguar). Other than the 200 gallon suggestion, that question got dismissed.

2. Then it changed to: not being able to house both african and americans.

3. So after I returned the livingston, jaguar, and peacocks, my question became: how many of these cichlid's can I temporarily manage in a 55.

Somehow along this chain of conversation, the fact that this tank is only temporary got ignored and transformed again into a very strict and intolerant rule that suggests even as juveniles, these fish cannot go together.

If everyone is in fact suggesting and stands behind this then fine.

But this is the part that I disagree with.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

The question is how temporary? Many people come in here and say "I have 2 oscars and a jack in a 29g tank temporarily, what size tank do I need?" then find out that they fish are a year old living in a 29g tank. Regardless of tank size, you will more than likely run into issue with your current stocking. I'm not going to lie to you. THe fact that your current tank size is temporary is completely irrelevant. The suggestions have not really been in terms to your tank size, but more to your stocking. As it stands, you have a jewel cichlid in a 10g. Obviously what people are telling you is correct. I'm sorry this offends you, but we want to see you succeed and have a stress free experience. Everyone here has been through what you are going through right now.

 

[onidrase]

We're not trying to attack you personally, but everyone on this forum is here for the fish. I know what it's like to spend a lot of money (or time) on fish that you ultimately cannot keep. That's how it went with my green terror, that's how it went with my red spotted severum, and 15 buenos aires tetras, and 9 tiger barbs, and 12 australian rainbowfish, 2 jack dempseys, 2 firemouths, 1 green severum, 7 silver dollars, 4 pictus catfish, 1 senegal bichir...

That's actually a rather depressing list of fish that I bought impulsively and either died because I wasn't careful about what I put them with or I had to rehome because of compatibility or even possible compatibility issues. That's about 250 dollars of fish, from this year alone, which I moved on happily, because they were getting picked on, getting eaten, getting killed, etc etc etc. I understand that not everyone is willing to pass their fish to a new tank, but I did it under the fact that I knew where they were going, and most of these fish went from my 75 gallon into 125-200 gallon tanks, with more compatible tank mates, or more room, etc. This hobby isn't cheap, especially when it comes to unpredictable fish like cichlids.

What I learned through my initial 75 gallon experience is that you can't judge a cichlids personality based on how he was when he was 2-4 inches long. I learned not to buy things impulsively, and to research compatibility and temperament, not just through google profile searches, but by experienced members and stories of previous owners. My 75 gallon experience, in honesty, was a train wreck. My fish in there were happy and healthy (until they randomly got killed, disappeared, broke out into puberty wars...) and grew strong, had great color, there was absolutely no signs of distress, but watching the tank more clearly, I knew that things weren't going to work out much longer. By the end of it, rather than thinking that a 75 gallon can really support a foot long cichlid or two, I was just thinking "Man, I could really use some bolivian rams right now" and that's exactly what I got into instead. Haven't looked back since. I'll probably be waiting to get a 6-8 foot tank before going back into large and territorial new world cichlids with other fish, TBH.

What is boils down to is it's still your tank, and you can throw in what you want to. We're not necessarily telling you to go do things by gunpoint, but ultimately giving you advice, from our knowledge and experience, on what can randomly happen over night, and cost the lives of creatures we in this forum community love.

 

[Murrayjane]

By temporary I mean't like 3-6 months. However, if I am going to return some fish, then I won't feel so rushed. So if I had say 3 cichlid's, I would upgrade in 6 months - 1 year.

Onidrase, no offense taken, I know that you are only trying to help me have a non stressful and healthy tank.

I appreciate everyone's help, all the information has been great!

Alright, next time I go visit my shop keeper ill see if I can exchange the Jewel and 1 or both of the firemouths. That leaves the GT, Dempsey, convict and (potentially) 1 firemouth.

If I did also exclude the firemouth, would the Green Terror, Dempsey, and Convict be alright?

Wills suggested to keep around 3 and then if I desire, add some tetras or other kinds of fish.

If not, are there any other combinations that anyone can recommend with the given fish I have?

My thoughts - I feel that each of the fish treat each other in particular differently. For instance, the jewel chases the Green Terror and the convict, but is fine with my dempsey. The firemouths chase everyone, but again are fine with the dempsey. The convict is fine with everyone EXCEPT for the Dempsey. So should I just use my own judgement on which ones to eliminate from my tank? I think the jewel needs to go as it has its notoriety for being so aggressive. I think one firemouth will be alright as they like to hide a majority of the time and the only force they use is intimidation. The coconut convict is AWESOME and I don't want to give him away despite his slight aggression towards my Dempsey.

What do you all think is best?

My fish: Jewel, Convict, Green Terror, EB-Dempsey, 2 Firemouths


Side Question - my Green Terror hasn't developed orange on its rear fin (tail). Will it develop or have I made a poor choice. (size 2 1/2")


Cheers!

 

[onidrase]

My GT didn't get the orange finnage until he was about 4 inches long, I believe. He was a rather ugly little thing for a good while.

My cichlids were the same way too, my GT had it out for the convict, but the firemouth and severum were fine. The firemouth hated the severum and convict, but wouldn't go near the GT. and the convict (the male, not the others) tended to leave everyone alone unless he felt the sudden need to have a temper tantrum, in which he'd incessantly chase everyone around til the GT would go shut him up.

Here was his baby picture, about 2 inches like yours:

and the last picture I took before rehoming him:

Somewhere in between:

 

[Murrayjane]

Wow! beautiful fish! My GT is more like the last (third) picture you posted. Maybe his size is in between. Still no orange tail, but looking at your little Terror i'm sure it will appear soon. I feed it New Life Spectrum pellets, bloodworms and brine shrimp.

Well my current decision is to remove a firemouth and the jewel and then just give the tank a few months and see how it goes. My male firemouth hides most of the day, but he looks spectacular when he decides to make an appearance. (Reminds me of my black ghost knife fish's behavior). Even though the EB-Dempsey is prone to any early grave (due to overbreeding) I think if it can grow another inch or so without it croaking, it should be fine.

I think the four cichlids should certainly be alright for the short while. (Still not perfect, but neither is my fish knowledge or ego)

I think ill exchange the jewel and firemouth for some regular tetras or silver dollars. (not really a big fan of either, but I would like to add some life in my tank).

 

[onidrase]

My guys were fed on omega one cichlid pellets, blood worms, deshelled peas, cucumber, and broccoli.

And who knows, you might have a healthy EBJD in there, only time will tell.

IME firemouths are rather shy, they tend to stick around the back of the tank, and chase other fish around now and then. But mine spent most of its time behind the driftwood. I couldn't even get much pictures of him.

Bleeding heart tetras would be a good choice for your tank, they're plenty active and colorful, and watching them bicker over dominance in the pecking order is always amusing. They tend to be a very common fish with green terrors, same with columbian red-blue tetras. My bleeding hearts have been growing extremely fast, so they seem like a good choice. My red eye tetras have barely grown since I got them.

 

[Murrayjane]

Actually now looking at pictures online, I think I have a blue acara instead of a green terror....

Not 100%, but seems more like it.

Anyways, I went out and purchased a 29 gallon tank today for $30, ordering the filter tonight to get it up and running. I figured this is the best temporary way to solve my problem without getting rid of anymore of my fish. Should I put the 2 firemouths in there? If not, what other fish combination could I put in there? Maybe the Jewel and 1 other?

1 Blue Acara/or GT, 2 firemouths, 1 jewel, 1 convict, 1 electric blue JD - 55g

 

[onidrase]

the 29 gallon would be fine for either the jewel or two FM's imo. I'd avoid putting more than 1 cichlid species in there though.

Blue acaras and green terrors are strikingly similar, and often hybridized with one another. If you take some pictures of yours I'm sure we'd be able to let you know which of the two you have.

 

[Murrayjane]

Yeah definitely, might have to wait a day or so to get a hold of the camera adapter. But the fish looks almost identical to this...
GT or BA?

I think the GT's are a little darker with a more highlighted orange lining.


Can multiple male jewels be put together?

 

[onidrase]

I'd avoid putting jewels together unless in a good sized group, tbh.

The picture you linked looks like a blue acara, not because of the colors, but because of the facial structure. blue acaras seem to have a much more symmetrical face, the mouth seems to be closer towards the middle, whereas the head on a green terror seems to have a more pronounced "forehead", with the mouth lower on the body.

I do love blue acaras, though. I've wanted them so bad, but I've never seen one before IRL.

 

[Murrayjane]

Nice, Blue acara's are apparently less dominant than the GT's. Might be a hybrid, who knows lol, ill post pics of everything when it's done. I think ill put the breeding pair of Firemouth's in the 29 gallon with some tetras. The jewel can go back to the shopkeeper which leaves my 55 gallon with the Blue Acara, EB Dempsey, and Coconut Convict. PERFECT!

If my EB Dempsey is an overbred mutant and randomly dies on me early enough, then ill replace him for a Green Terror or maybe another Acara (if I manage to get my hands on another).

Thanks everyone for your help, I know I can be rather arrogant when it comes to this sort of thing, but that's because I have spent the last 6 months dealing with advisers who lack any accuracy in their opinions. Everyone on this forum has been great!

Is play sand from Home Depot alright for a substrate? (Provided it hasn't got any coloring or obvious harmful chemicals) I have seen online that it works and a 50pound bag only costs about $5. If not play sand, how about Home Depots gravel? (petco bags are like 10 per 10 pounds!)

 

[onidrase]

I'd avoid putting a GT with a BA, TBH, GT's are more aggressive toward each other and similar looking species, and a meek, smaller species like a blue acara would probably get ripped apart. You're right though, the blue acaras are relatively docile.

I used Quikrete Playsand and Pavestone Playsand in my tanks before I decided I wanted to spend 100 dollars on fancy black stuff. I'm not sure on home depots sand, but if I were to choose any, I'd go with quikrete. It's super cheap (I got my 50 pound bag for 3 dollars) and easier to wash than pavestone's stuff. It also looks pretty dang good. I kind of miss it.

Pavestone's stuff looked a lot darker in the bag, but it turned out that most of the darkness of it was pretty much dirt. As soon as I put it in the tank it was actually a lighter color than quikretes.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I use playsand in most of my tanks as well and its great. It's a pain in the tookus to clean, but its worth it. And I know a lot of us can seem kind of pushy with our advice. It is really not intended that way. We have a great group of people here, all with the same goal: To help others succeed. I figure, if I can help one person NOT make the same mistakes that I did, then I know that my experience was worth it. We really, truly want to see people have a healthy happy tank.

 

[Murrayjane]

Instead of playsand I got Quikrete multi use gravel. It initially looks like really dirty stuff, but once cleaned it looks pretty good. $5 for 50 pounds, how could I say no? I am currently trying to clean all the gravel and waiting for my filter to arrive on Tuesday. Pretty excited! I will experiment with a platy before I put any of the big boys in. Make sure everything's alright.Once the firemouths go in the 29 gallon, ill be sure to take pics of both setups