Open Cichlid Forum All Welcome

[Murrayjane]

Thanks a lot Wills for the advice.

I exchanged the jaguar, livingston and peacocks and after browsing around the store I came across a coconut cichlid which he gave to me on the house. I know that convicts are known for their ability to break the jaw of a Firemouth and I have previously owned a breeding pair and was forced to return them (which lead me to getting the africans and jag).

Although they did not directly attack my fish, by doing research I soon understood that a breeding pair make them impossible to keep in a community tank. Their territoriality while breeding make them very aggravating. However, I believe that this single female should not be much of a bother towards the other tank mates. Fortunately, I have plenty of rocks to create large caves and miniature labyrinths where the firemouths rest throughout the day and make their rounds in the evening. I will continue to keep a close eye on the Jewel and Convict and if I see any signs of real aggression I will remove and exchange them. Despite the potential risk, I find them to be worth keeping if possible. (They truly are beautiful fish)

My only real concern are the firemouths. If they are in fact a pair and become overly aggressive before I have time to upgrade the tank, this could become a problem. Just have to wait and see. At least now I have strictly American cichlids and not the chaotic mix. I was constantly on edge as I am sure the wish were. The Green Terror seems very passive thus far along with the jewel and dempsey.

Once I do upgrade my tank, I will probably get the (green natual morph) swordtails, or tetras. For now I just need to keep researching.

 

[onidrase]

My female convict was 10x worse than my male. When I first got her I had her in a tank with black skirt tetras and upside down catfish, she killed all the catfish and 3 of the tetras. I had to keep her alone in a 20 gallon tank for months.

I moved her over to the 75 gallon with the other cichlids as a temporary measure,(at the time there was a dempsey, green terror, firemouth, and male convict) she killed the male convict, the dempsey, and the firemouth, and battered on the green terror, so I rehomed her, and just replaced the convict and firemouth.

Just cause they're smaller than males doesn't necessarily mean they're nicer. The second male convict I got was more mellow than the FM's ever were.

Some females are kinder though, yes, but they're still convicts. I've heard of people that keep their females in community tanks and they kind of mind their own. I was never that lucky.

don't get me wrong, I love convicts, they're still my favorite new world cichlid despite them not being anything all too uncommon or new (they're actually the rabbit of the cichlid world, so it's not surprising he'd throw you a freebie, that's like giving you a free feeder guppy only it turns into a 6 inch long battering ram of a fish) but they can be little monsters. Be careful with them.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

I can definitely agree with you on convict, Onidrase. I heard they are horrible when breeding.

Murrayjane, I am also glad to hear that you have a rather docile Jewel. I personally do not hate them. I think they are quite possibly one of the most beautiful, colorful freshwater fish.I had mine for almost a yearr and it got impossible to keep her with anything so I rehomed her to someone with a Jewel Community.

As for the Green Terror that you have, I have a pair myself and absolutely adore them. Yes my male is a little bit of a bully at times, but for the most part, the only aggression he shows is towards me (he hates me and i don't know why). Some have speculated that he is trying to protect his wifey from me. Currenly, I have a 75g with a Green Terror bredding pair, a pair of Severums, and 3 synodontis cats. I'm currently rebuilding the stand for my 125g, which will soon be their permanant home. So far, I have seen no agression between the fish, just my male GT making flarey faces at me lol.

I also have to agree with comments regarding adult cichlids. I had 2 Jack Demspeys and 2 Oscars in a tank together. Did very well for a long time. Then the Jacks spawned (i didn't know they were male and female) and the Jacks did quite some damage to the oscars protecting their brood (a 3 inch female Jack v. a 7 inch Oscar makes for a very pathetic display from an Oscar, especially if the female has eggs) so I moved the oscars to a 125g tank. By the time the Oscars were 10 months old, one of my oscars snapped and decided he no longer wanted tankmates. Long story short I had to divide the tank because one of the oscars almost got shredded. I no longer have the oscars. I had to rehome them when my tank stand cracked, and its currently being repaired so I can move my Gts and severums.

It's a hard thing being a Cichlid keeper. You are always preparing for the unknown, the what-ifs, and the moment you start thinking everything is fine, something happens that makes you rethink everything you though you know. It's happened to me numerous times. We don't pick cihclid tankmates, the fish do. My best advice to anyone wanted large cichlids is have a spare tank, filter and heater. You never know what you may have to do.

 

[Murrayjane]

Thanks Onidrase and Dieses for your responses. Since all my fish are still young, I will not know if there is any real incompatibility until they are older. The jewel and the convicts are both on the top of my surveillance list as they seem to be the greatest potential risk to the tank. It is actually great to hear all of these stories that everyone has gone through. I myself have learned many harsh lessons, not just through their aggression, but simply due to my own ignorance.

For instance, my first Green Terror (beautiful colors) decided to jump out of the tank after only having him for 2-3 days. I had a breeding pair of convicts who were not only annoying, but they caused my entire tank stress which stressed me out. On top of this, even before I changed to Cichlids, I had a Black Ghost Knife Fish with a community tank of angel fish, gourami's etc... and all of a sudden, eyes from my fish were vanishing followed by giant chomps out of their torsos. ALL OF THIS came down to me receiving poor advice from one of the fish keepers/stores that I would go to. At the time, I was not fully on board with the fact that the ONLY thing they care about is making a sale. The fish were cheap, they have a huge variety, and since I visited so often, I thought he would eventually provide me with some non self beneficial advice. Although I find this highly insulting as their entire career is based on fish keeping, it's the way of the world nonetheless.

So I must say that I already have my fair share of pains and displeasure's when it comes to fish keeping, but it makes me glad to hear that this is all part of a normal process of trying to figure out what should go with what. You will never truly know unless you try. That being said, I felt like a horrible person having allowed some of these fish to be bullied, stressed, and even killed, but overall it is important that we try to reduce that risk as swiftly as possible.

My tank setup is now as followed: Green Terror, EBDempsey, Jewel, Convict, and 2 firemouths. With them being in a 55, the most I can do right now is to keep the caves coming and hope that they are all able to live in relative peace until I am able to upgrade.

 

[Wills]

My tank setup is now as followed: Green Terror, EBDempsey, Jewel, Convict, and 2 firemouths. With them being in a 55, the most I can do right now is to keep the caves coming and hope that they are all able to live in relative peace until I am able to upgrade.

First of all Im really happy you are taking the advice on board you can really tell things are starting to click in.

But some brutally honest advice is that your not doing the most you can - and hoping that they get on in this situation is not enough. The odds are weighted against you. You need to cut your numbers of cichlids in total pick three rehome the rest and then come back and add more later on when you have the space.

Im sorry for being so blunt but its really what it boils down to.

Wills

 

[Murrayjane]

I moved the jewel to a separate tank (a 10 gallon) by itself. I'm left with 5. That is the best I can do for now. Unfortunately, I had to put a killie fish in the 55 as it was already in the 10. That really is the most I can do (or care to do) in terms of reducing the aggressive behavior. I believe the killie should be alright considering it is a top swimmer. If this still turns out to be a bad mix I will glady return a few more to the fish store and leave it be. (unless I get a few harmless sturdy fish). Quite honestly, I feel close to having the temporary perfect tranquility, but as a few of you had already pointed out, the jewel is now becoming slightly more aggressive towards my GT and Convict. So I think it is best to keep him moved in his new location or return him.

Can a jewel live in a 10 gallon solo for a while?

 

[Dieses Madchen]

A jewel cichlid can get to be about 4 inches, to a 10g tank isnt really ideal, especially if your Jewel was once an active fish. This can cause undo stress and your Jewel will start becoming reclusive (experience on this one). I moved my Jewel to a 10g after she wrecked my first GT and killed a Vieja Bifasciatus. She was in the 10g for a week before i found her a home. She was not a happy fish.

 

[Murrayjane]

Hmm I understand. It seems that I am once again in an endless dilemma. I feel that I may as well keep it in the 10 gallon for a week and see how it goes. It is the only way to ensure the safety of my fish. If I do return the jewel i'd want to probably return another few cichlid's to get myself down to 3 (as suggested). I can't be bothered to return JUST the Jewel. So I will keep it in the 10 and see if the colors grow dull. Returning it to the store will most likely result in it being put into an overly crowded 15 gallon anyway. It's weird because some forums say Jewels aren't aggressive (for being a cichlid) others say that they are demons.

 

[Murrayjane]

The yoyos were a big nono. All the cichlids tried to eat them

Fortunately I have them in a separate tank.

 

[Dieses Madchen]

It's variable from fish to fish when it comes to cichlids. I had a crazy Jewel, you had a docile one turned aggresive. I had two docile oscars, that turned on each other on a whim. It's a guessing game with larger cichlids. Yes, its drama, and yes it is stressful, but you will find a setup that works. I promise you that

 

[onidrase]

IME (since I'm not able to get a tank much larger than a 4 footer) it's good to just get 1 large cichlid, and stock around it. Larger schooling fish it won't be able to fit in its mouth, some tough, armored bottom feeders, and maybe a few small cichlids.

Think of it this way, you've got a 55 gallon tank, 4 feet long, 1 foot wide, correct? The EBJD (assuming it lives, which once again, don't get your hopes up, they're notorious die-on-a-whim fish) will get 8-12 inches long, the GT will get 8-12 inches long, those two alone will take up half the tank if they were to both line up in front of the tank, and since the width of this tank is only enough to let them turn around-if that, they will be lined up a lot. Then you've got the two FM's which can get 5-6 inches long, that's another 1/4th of the tank length, then the convict, which is another 4-6 inches. these are all very territorial fish, they will want space to themselves- not space to their body length, I know my female convict claimed at least a foot of the tank, and with this stocking, they will always be in each others space.

I know you're looking to upgrade, but IMO it's good to stock for what you have now- not what you might have in the future. Planning for the future is a hard thing. I planned for the future once and stocked a 29 gallon tank for what was going to be a future 55 gallon tank. I finally got a 55 gallon tank, filled it up with water, and tada, broken centerbrace, had to take the tank down, and it wasn't until almost a year later that I got my 4 foot tank. Instead of the cool tank I got and stocked for pre maturely, I got a bunch of unhappy or dead fish, and a tank that sat empty in my room for 3 months which I sold for 50 bucks to some snake fanatics, which all could have been avoided if I was just a little more patient. That's a big part of this hobby- patience. There isn't any reason to grow out fish for a bigger tank unless there are things in said bigger tank that will eat them. I'm never doing that again.

as been said, other things can get in the way, rainy days, car breaking down, surprise medical visits, sick pets, etc. It's easy to avoid having an overstocked tank that you're planning on getting a bigger tank for in the future, it's just waiting until you have a bigger tank in the future.

If I were you, I'd remove the EBJD, since it seems like a 1 in 50 chance that they live a healthy life- or even grow to full size, if they grow at all. From what I've seen on the forum, in LFS's, and from other people's stories, this genetic line is a total trash heap. I've seen 1 person who had one of these grow to its full size. I've seen tons who had seemingly healthy ones never grow period, or die for no reason. They're pretty, yes, but IMO they're nothing compared to a full grown green terror. So I'd keep the Green terror over it any day.

My stocking line for a 50 gallon for now would go like this, based off what you already have:

1 GT
1 convict (cause I like convicts better than FM's, and FM's can't stick up for themselves as well IME, they just instigate and get whooped if the fish accepts their challenge)
8 bleeding heart tetras or buenos aires tetras (Red eye tetras would work if you find them at a decent size, but they grow really slowly and will probably get eaten otherwise)
1 BN plec (if you want a plec)
3 medium sized armored catfish (5-8 inches)

 

[Murrayjane]

Onidrase, I agree with just about EVERYTHING you have just said. The ONLY thing I don't see a point in is to get rid of these fish. For instance, The EB-Dempsey, if it is going to not grow and die on me anyway. Am I really to just send it back to my fish store and have them sell it to someone else who is just going to get screwed over too? Plus, the Dempsey is currently the most docile fish in the tank. I have had it the longest and not once has it tried to do anything vicious to another tank mate. Yes I would rather have the Green Terror over the Dempsey, but I don't see much of a point in returning a (deformed) fish if it already has a known over-breeding issue. Furthermore, if it DOES grow into a beautiful adult (Which, although I won't completely keep my hopes up, I hope it does), then by that time of course I will upgrade my tank and if I cannot upgrade it, then I will sell it.

Above this, in regards to my current tank space. Yes if I allowed my EB-Dempsey to grow full size (7-8" they tend to be smaller than regular Dempseys) and my GT (10-12 if Male) then yes I will be short of tank space. But they are slow growers so we are talking way too far down the line. If my car breaks down and my pets get sick, then ill have to improvise (sell the fish).

The Firemouth's I agree with, they do bully the fish but instead of attacking them, they just want to run them out of town. This behavior is similar to the breeding pair of convicts I owned (not as bad). However, I stupidly spent $25 on my first firemouth (thinking it was actually that price), only to find that my second one was $7. I don't care to simply throw the fish (or the money) away right now. Although they are both semi-adult size, they aren't doing enough damage to the tank for me to call it a day. If they do get retaliation from the convict or GT, then I will take the next necessary step.

Judging by your experience, I have a feeling that at the end of the day YOU WILL BE RIGHT and I WILL BE WRONG. Ill probably wake up one day to find one or 2 of my fish injured or killed. But at this rate, it's not like I am going to get much, if any of my money back and on top of that, returning them to the fish store almost always results in them dying or being purchased by some other Cichlid newbie. I am starting to adopt the Philosophy of live and let be at this point and may only the strong survive. I know that if these fish grow even remotely large, I will find the funds to upgrade the tank. Even with all 5 of these fish at their adult size could reside comfortably live in a 90+. Many might find this idea to be coming from one with a cruel heart, but I assure you I have gone to the more extreme measures to try and keep these fish happy. My ignorance lead me to making the mistake, but I am really am growing tired of returning the fish essentially free.

I do agree with you that once my tank has been narrowed down to 1-3 Cichlids, I can then add the tetras and catfish etc... I must say that I am not fed up with fish keeping, despite the fact that I have been going through this hell for months now and have been CONTINUOUSLY going back and forth from fish store to fish store. (My girlfriend is starting to get concerned with my fish fanaticism) I'm just going to wait a few more weeks and see how it goes. After all, the more fish I get rid of, the more territory they will claim anyway.

The last part of your response and the response from Wills, have been the responses I have needed this entire time.

A suitable 55 gallon = 1 or 2 Cichlid's with some sturdy tetras/catfish.

 

[Murrayjane]

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e2HsA5Uor8

Check out this guys tank for instance. He has a jewel, convict, firemouths and many other aggressive cichlid's and they all seem to work alright. In my opinion his rock caves are fragile and risky, but in terms of overstocking, or the fish living together, it seems to be alright. He even has goruamis and community fish in there (which I obviously do not plan to do).

 

[Wills]

Thats a 2 mins 44 secs snip of that one tank - no way a reliable representation of how that tank is going to last long term.

Just trust us please we only want the best for your fish and you.

Wills

 

[talisker]

i had a jewel and i have say it was the most aggressive fish i've ever seen and i keep flowerhorns and midas cichlids, mine was in with a green terror which was three times the size of the jewel, the green terror once ripped off one of the jewel cichlids fins in a fight and still the jewel would not back down.
the GT was a much bigger fish and always got the better of the jewel but that didn't stop it from having ago