Ooooh...don't touch that fish, it's diseased/inbred/etc.!

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Wandering this and other on-line resources, it seems that there are certain fish many sources cite as being too inbred to bother with, or are nearly always carrying some fatal disease or other.
These include some of those fish previously described as perfect 'Beginner' fish, for new tanks, community or otherwise.
Neon Tetras - Diseased...so get Cardinals or Green Neons instead.
Guppies - Inbred...so get Endlers instead.
Dwarf Gouramis - Diseased...so get any other small Gourami instead.

Really?!?
These judgements appear to be made with such conviction and they are then passed on and on, often by those who are only responding to what they have heard, rather than actual experience and proper scientific research.

Since February, I've spent a lot of time lurking around my three closest fish shops, staring for too long at neons, guppies and dwarf gourami and am yet to see signs of disease. Speaking to shop staff, (the ones who keep fish themselves and seem to know what they're talking about), whilst it is acknowledged that some disease does exist in fish populations, by the time they reach the shop front,they are healthy and fit for sale. (I know shops would say that, or else they wouldn't sell any fish, but still...)
Each of the fish I've listed are popular fishes, as are the others so labelled and I'm wondering...is this just a US of A thing? I've spoken with aquarist mates here in Blighty who keep these fish and have experienced no difficulties, although each of these is experienced and knows what they're doing.
Being popular, many of these fish will pass through many hands, many of which will not be offering well-nigh perfect care. This alone would result in an above-average mortality, although given the average dishonesty of fishkeepers trying to get refunds, or free replacement fish, or those incapable of taking accountability for their purchases, I then wonder if poor care is not listed as the main cause of death because it is easier to blame 'disease' or 'inbreeding'.

Thoughts?

 

[Colin_T]

Speaking to shop staff, (the ones who keep fish themselves and seem to know what they're talking about), whilst it is acknowledged that some disease does exist in fish populations, by the time they reach the shop front, they are healthy and fit for sale. (I know shops would say that, or else they wouldn't sell any fish, but still...)

Some diseases are treated successfully in quarantine tanks before the shops get them. Other diseases are on the fish when they are shipped to the shop. And things like viruses and Tuberculosis can remain in the fish for months or years before they show symptoms, and by then it's too late.

Dwarf gouramis (Colisa lalius) and all their colour forms are heavily inbred and also carry an Iridovirus, and they regularly carry Fish Tuberculosis. The fish can carry the Iridovirus and TB for months (or years for TB) before it starts to affect them and there are no symptoms before it starts to affect them.

Inbreeding is common in guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies, Betta splendens and dwarf gouramis. It's how they get the new colour and fin forms. A lot of the breeders don't get new bloodlines and simply inbreed the same fish over and over again. This is how balloon fish, long finned Bettas, and colourful guppies with big tails were developed. It's also how albino fish were created. The breeders find a fish with an unusual trait and breed it back to the parents and siblings. Any other unusual young produced from that are bred back to the first mutant fish. These fish are inbred repeatedly until they get a true colour form. By which time the fish might have been inbred to other close family members 10 or more times.

Neon tetras can carry neon disease (bacterial infection) and this is usually treated in quarantine but sometimes sick fish are sent out when they shouldn't be. Guppies regularly have bacterial and external protozoan infections, and these should be picked up and treated in quarantine. But again, they are sometimes sent to shops with the diseases.

All fish can carry intestinal worms and gill flukes and most of the time these are not even identified in quarantine or at the shop, and millions of fish are shipped all over the world with these parasites. Most of the time these parasites are treated at people's homes.

--------------
Diseased fish can be found all around the world because most commercially available freshwater aquarium fish come from Indonesian fish farms. These farms send fish to Australia, America, the UK, Africa, China, everywhere. Some fish like goldfish are bred in their billions in China and sent around the world. Germany produces some good quality cichlids and often supplies wild caught fishes as well as captive bred species. Indonesia produces goldfish and cichlids too, but these are the three main countries that supply aquarium fish to the world. And 90% of the freshwater tropical fish we keep come from Indonesia.

There are local fish breeders (fish farms and hobbyists) in most countries but they only provide a tiny fraction of the fish sold in shops.

 

[Byron]

Back in the 1980's when I got into the hobby in a serious way, I was lucky to have a local fish store owned by two knowledgeable hobbyists, and staffed solely by hobbyists. They imported almost all of their soft water fish direct from the country of origin, i.e., wild caught fish. After I moved and settled in Vancouver in the early 1990's, I was again fortunate to have a similar store. I am fairly confident that all my fish in those days were direct imports of wild caught fish. I never encountered fish diseases, ever, aside from ich. In the first decade of this present century, I continued to deal with importers, individuals or store, and once a group of cories had gill flukes (easily cured). The next decade, I had lost these importers (individuals and store) and started having issues with internal (thus unseen) protozoan and bacterial infections, always with fish from one or two "chain" stores which were about the only sources.

Wild caught fish are without question better choices when it comes to soft water fish. Countries in South America have enforceable laws now to ensure preservation of species, and organizations like Project Piaba [https://projectpiaba.org/] are well worth supporting; the latter not only guarantees species and ecosystem protection, it provides a very good living wage to the indigenous people--without their having to destroy the rainforest to plant crops, etc. Everyone wins.

 

[Avel1896]

some of those fish previously described as perfect 'Beginner' fish, for new tanks, community or otherwise.

Hey
call some fishes "beginner fish" is, according to me, a lack of respect for fish life because it means that those fishes need no care, no hygiene, are content with low quality food ?
There is none "fish for beginner" as there is none "fish cleaner" but only bad, disrespectfull and irresponsible aquarists, perennial problem that is kept going by LFS/LPS and of course wholesalers....

 

[Naughts]

Personally I try not to comment on threads about species I haven't owned but I know not everyone follows that restraint and may pass on 'hearsay'.

I've noticed on here that USA members complain of inbred/ diseased panda cories but UK hobbyists don't. I don't know why that might be.

Many competent members (UK and US) have experienced a virus in neon tetra (not NTD symptoms, something newer and undocumented) that develops after weeks or months and is untreatable. The fish die after a number of months. The fish shops may never know this is happening.

 

[Avel1896]

The fish shops may never know this is happening.

Agreed. But there are billions involved....

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Hey
call some fishes "beginner fish" is, according to me, a lack of respect for fish life because it means that those fishes need no care, no hygiene, are content with low quality food ?
There is none "fish for beginner" as there is none "fish cleaner" but only bad, disrespectfull and irresponsible aquarists, perennial problem that is kept going by LFS/LPS and of course wholesalers....

Easy Matey...we're all on the same side here.

I would never try and promote the vaguest notion that some fish need no care, no hygiene and are content with inappropriate food. If I worked at somewhere like P@H, I can guarantee that sales would plummet whenever I was on duty.
That said, there are some fish that require extremely specific, ongoing, water parameters, specific diets and a whole host of different and interacting factors that make the proper care of such a challenge, to even the most skilled and experienced aquarist. There is no way that any such fish should be recommended to someone setting out in the hobby, someone who we hope will learn to appreciate it and stay with us, developing their knowledge and skills and sharing those experiences with everyone. Our first duty is always to the fish, but the new hobbyist should not be dismissed, or set up to fail.

On the other fin, there are some fish that ARE easier to care for and actualy do have a more robust disposition, as is often demonstrated by their performance in the wild. These are the fish we recommend to beginners. We know mistakes will be made and so have a choice to recommend a fish that we strongly suspect will die an uncomfortable death and the hands of the Newbie, or one that will survive the encounter and go on to demonstrate how best to care for our fishy charges.

Hopefully, as more knowledgeable aquarists develop, their voice will be stronger and the irresponsible retailers will have to pay more attention and either greatly improve their practice or go away. I know that P@H gets in for some well-deserved stick, but I can also confirm that their practices are a seriously huge improvemet on what they used to be and this is a direct result from a more demanding and knowledgeable customer base.

 

[Avel1896]

Easy Matey...we're all on the same side here.
I would never try and promote the vaguest notion that some fish need no care, no hygiene and are content with inappropriate food.

I said that "in general" I'm fed up with those people asking for "cleaner fishes" and PFS answering "which one" ?

 

[coriesinhawaii]

There was definitely a problem with Dwarf Gouramis and Iridovirus here in Hawaii several years back. I bought 2 over the course of a year or so from different stores and both fish died with typical Iridovirus lesions. One didn’t show any symptoms until 3 months after I brought it home-with no fish added in the meantime! All of the other species I had in the tank were healthy with no issues. When I asked the store I bought it from about it they hadn’t even heard of the disease, but I wasn’t too surprised because it was a Petco. I haven’t attempted to buy any since then because I didn’t want to risk getting attached to another fish just to have it die from an incurable disease, so I don’t know if the situation has resolved or not.

 

[Colin_T]

so I don’t know if the situation has resolved or not.

No it hasn't been resolved yet. The gourami Iridovirus is still active and still being sent around the world.

 

[Avel1896]

The gourami Iridovirus is still active and still being sent around the world.

Really ?
So every single line is affected ?

 

[Colin_T]

It depends on where the fish come from as to whether or not they have the Iridovirus. Some breeders have it in their systems, other breeders don't. Unfortunately there is no easy way to tell if they have it. In Australia a number of fish will be taken by AQIS (Australian quarantine inspection services) and tested for the virus. If any have it, the entire batch of gouramis is destroyed. Other countries don't do this and the virus can slip through easier.

 

[Avel1896]

I didn't even know there's an iridovirus test.
Where can I find it ? I mean besides Australia ?

 

[Colin_T]

The fish get sent to a lab and they test for the virus. Any pathology lab should be able to do it if they know what the virus looks like.

 

[Avel1896]

Any pathology lab should be able to do it if they know what the virus looks like.

Have no doubt on labs skills... on the other hand it should be LPS/LFS/wholesalers responsability to check it before selling fishes....... and this is where I doubt.