One Of My Loaches Doesn't Look Great :(

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Hey, thanks for that.
 
There are no choloramines in the water supply, and very little free chlorine either 1.2ppm at source and probably about a 3rd of that by the time it reaches the property.  Water conditioners standard dose tends to remove about 4ppm I think.
 
Yes, the bit about heavy metals could apply, it's not that likely, it's a busy family, we used lots of water but definitely food for thought.  I usually just use a hose pipe, connect it to the external filter to pump the water out and down the sink and then connect it to the tap to refill.  Wouldn't be an issue to run the water for a while before putting water into the tank though.  There is some old pipework, thought not that much I don't think, it's a combi-bolier as well, so no sitting water.
And in theory heavy metals should be removed by the conditioner as well.  Saying that, it's an easy routine to get into to run the tap for a while before filling the tank to be on the safe side and something I will probably just do as part of the course now.
 
Will keep you updated.
 
My house is not that old, but I usually run both hot and cold taps for a while before I fill up the tank. It might be worth getting in the habbit of doing that just in case.
 
If there is just some old pipework, I dont know if that would have any affect or not. Chelating compounds are used in dechlorinators that bind heavy metals, but I cannot find any explaination as to what happens to these bound metals in the tank. I am thinking if they sink and remain trapped in the gravel is this why its affecting the loaches and not the other fish??? (again another staw clutch idea) It might be worth asking that question in the scientific section, maybe someone with more chemical knowledge may help as I am only guessing. Then again gravel vaccing, would this remove them? sorry again more questions than answers.
 
The best person to ask would be twotankadmin, they really seem to know lots about chemical compounds in water and their affects. I maybe barking up the wrong tree, but I still have a feeling its water related.
 
Edit: Sent TTA a pm asking if they will take a look at my theory :)
 
Sorry I cant help with the disease diagnosis but if metals and chlorine are issues in your household maybe try one of these in the link below.

I perform twice weekly 25% water changes on my 400l and add the water back in straight from the tap using one of these and a splash of tap safe for good measure

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolution-Aqua-dechlorinator-12-purifier/dp/B008BGQZU4/ref=sr_1_7?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1405514678&sr=1-7&keywords=evolution+aqua

Might be worth a go. Good luck and hope if all gets sorted
 
Thanks guys,
 
Lots of options, because it's a planted tank with only a fine layer of gravel over soil I don't vacum the gravel so I guess it's possible.  Although by your logic I'd have thought the plecs would have been affected too.  And the've been in the tank for years now.  And it's sort of odd that only some of them are affected and that they are improving despite me not doing anything to remove anything from the aquarium.
 
If it's indeed something in the water suppy I'd hypothesis that its something that is at a concentration borderline to being toxic, since only some have been affected, and something that takes around a week to break down to being harmless.  But the plants probably complicate this somewhat as it could be them that are doing the de-toxifying.
 
Will be interesting to here if TTA has any thoughts.
 
A couple of observations and thoughts here. Though its now water over the dam, you did not Q the fish correctly. So let me start with this.
 
Quarantine can mean different things to different folks. However, the first consideration in doing Q depends on whether one is dealing with wild caught or tank raised/farmed fish. How long one Qs is based on this. For farmed/rank raised the period is 4 weeks and for wild caught it can be up to three months. This has to do with what problems one might encounter and how long some things can take to manifest. I usually use 30 days for domestics and 60 for wilds. However, these periods do not mean total time, but rather they mean consecutive days with no illness or symptoms.
 
This means if you have a fish under 60 day Q and it gets sick after two weeks and it takes two more weeks for it to be cured, That the 60 days restarts from the time it is cured. Assuming no further illness the Q in this example would have taken basically 90 days, not 60. Applying this to your loaches, you can see they were not left in Q anywhere long enough.
 
Next, loaches almost always live in groups and these have a pecking order. When one puts a new group into a tank it can take weeks if not a couple of months for them to work out the pecking order. When loaches are fighting they tend to do a lot of heavy rapid breathing. When the smaller ones are stressed by the bigger, the will breath rapidly. So this is often not a sign of illness. The same applies to fading. This is often a sign of submission. It is also a sign of stress. You will also find when they sleep, they may also fade. All the fish will fight since number  must contend with number 3 and so on down the line.
 
Loaches are not happy about being medicated more often than not. So this can also affect them during that time. Yours have been subjected to almost continual medication since you got them. So they are clearly under stress from the meds not to mention anything they may have cured.
 
If you have velvet or ich, the Flub. is good for that and when I have used it with my clown loaches, they were not overly bother by it, but were not quite their normal selves.
 
From all I have read about your issue, I cannot say I am convinced that the fish are actually sick. Hiding, is notmal, some rapid breathing is normal, they are eating normally as well I think. Ich would be pretty obvious in not much time, but velvet/odinium might not show up so clearly. However, Flub. should be good for both. However, I cannot say that your fish are fine for sure either.
 
Antibiotics used in combination with other meds can cause some issues depending on which ones are being combined. And this might be the cause of some rapid breathing.
 
Another consideration here is that gill flukes can be hard to diagnose as noted below. Here is a quote from the fish disease section on Badman's site regarding gill flukes:
 
No photos are included here, because usually flukes are too small to visualize with the naked eye. This also creates serious problems for trying to diagnose by general physical signs (hyperproduction of slime, inflamed gills) or general behavioral signs (listlessness, gasping, scratching, etc.). All these signs overlap considerably with other more common causes of skin and gill irritation, including ammonia poisoning and more common skin parasitisms such as ich. The first step in any tank where these signs are seen is to rule out ammonia poisoning first by testing for any level above 0.
from http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification_1.html#Fluke
 
This opens another possibility. While your one test reported in this thread showed ammonia at 0, it was only test and the symptoms have been there a while. So it is possible you had ammonia but it was finally gone by the time you did test.
 
Loaches tend to bolt for cover and hide during water changes. They are being stressed during this time, so even though one adds back clean water which would normally mitigate certain issues, when you are done and the fish come out they may be breathing rapidly because of the stress factor which can also explain fading at times.
 
So what I see is both the possibility that your fish are not ill but are merely adjusting to a new tank, a new grouping and a bit of stress. It could be that they did have something in Q which was cured, but maybe not eliminated and it has recurred. You may want to consider holding off an throwing more meds at a problem which might not exist. If there are flukes or velvet/ich in the tank, it seems logical that some of your other fish should also show some symptoms.
 
The difficulty is I cannot tell you that your fish are not sick with certainty, only that they may not be in as bad a condition as you think or may be completely fine as much of what you describe can be attributed to normal behavior as well as being a symptom. What I do see is you have them at the bottom of their temperature range. But cooler water is normally better oxygenated than warmer and bacteria do less well the lower the temperature vs the higher. Even so, you may want to bump the temp up a degree or two.
 
If you have not read these, I suggest you read the piece on keeping botias in general here http://www.loaches.com/articles/an-introduction-to-keeping-botia and then the piece on Kubotai here http://www.loaches.com/species-index/botia-kubotai
 
Hi TTA, thanks for that I will take it on board.
 
Just to answer, or add information to your points.
 
Next, loaches almost always live in groups and these have a pecking order. When one puts a new group into a tank it can take weeks if not a couple of months for them to work out the pecking order. When loaches are fighting they tend to do a lot of heavy rapid breathing. When the smaller ones are stressed by the bigger, the will breath rapidly. So this is often not a sign of illness. The same applies to fading. This is often a sign of submission. It is also a sign of stress. You will also find when they sleep, they may also fade. All the fish will fight since number  must contend with number 3 and so on down the line.
 
 
While I don't doubt that there has been some fighting this was a sudden change in behvaiour.  They went into the new tank, explored were active, payful, I could always see all 7, thier behaviour was pretty much the same as I had done in quarantine and they were like this for a week.  I then carried out a water change, the next day several of them then became subdued, hide away and didn't come out to feed and when I did see them in hiding, or out, they were breathing very very rapidly.  And it was always the same individuals.  What makes me question the hierachy argument is that the first affected is by far the biggest and bulkiest individual in the group.
 
Now a week after the water change they seem to be more active again, I can't see any exhibiting really heavy breathing and they are all coming to feed again.
 
The other thing, from what I've seen is that hiding is not normal with these fish from.  The ones that I've never seen exhibiting heavy breathing are constantly on the go, they explore everywhere, they use the whole height of the tank, they explore their way right up branches, up plant leaves.  They will occasionally swim up and swim along behind the Harlequin rasbora shoal.  I'm not saying they don't hide, but they very curious and anything new that is put in the tank they come out and see what its all about.  And this was the same for all 7 of them for the first week or so.  So this reclusive behaviour does seem odd, and now that they appear to be improving I'm seeing more and more of the ones that appeared ill.
 
Loaches are not happy about being medicated more often than not. So this can also affect them during that time. Yours have been subjected to almost continual medication since you got them. So they are clearly under stress from the meds not to mention anything they may have cured.
 
 
I have to say they they have showed very little signs of stress, obviously I am no expert and no one can tell exactly what the fish are thinking.  But after the initial week or so in quarentine even during treatment they were all active and all feeding well.
 
 
So what I see is both the possibility that your fish are not ill but are merely adjusting to a new tank, a new grouping and a bit of stress. It could be that they did have something in Q which was cured, but maybe not eliminated and it has recurred. You may want to consider holding off an throwing more meds at a problem which might not exist. If there are flukes or velvet/ich in the tank, it seems logical that some of your other fish should also show some symptoms.
 
I agree there may not be an illness, my concern really was after further reading most places seem to suggest that antibacterials are used alongside treatment for flukes and internal parasites to protect against common secondary bacteria infections - something I did not do which is why I initially suspected a bacterial infection.
 
Another consideration here is that gill flukes can be hard to diagnose as noted below. Here is a quote from the fish disease section on Badman's site regarding gill flukes:
 
 
While I appreciate this, the quote is saying they are difficult to diagnose because the symptoms can be for multiple reasons, the fact I have no inflammation or mucus etc is why I'm leaning away from actual infection being the problem here.
 
This opens another possibility. While your one test reported in this thread showed ammonia at 0, it was only test and the symptoms have been there a while. So it is possible you had ammonia but it was finally gone by the time you did test.
 
 
I did the test on the day after the water change when the symptoms started showing - the ammonia levels had been fine before the water change, and given that this was 24 hours after the WC I can't see that the levels could have peaked and disappeared again in this time.  It also doesn't explain the prolonged symptoms.
 
Maybe it all just is a figment of my imagination, but from my inexperianced eye this wasn't heavy breathing as them getting their breath back from being chased a bit, this was constant panting that I did not see any reduction in.  I hope you are right and that there is nothing actually wrong with them - fingers crossed this is just me being paranoid and there is nothing wrong with the loaches, the water or the water conditioner.
 
Today is the first day though, since the first week, when since the lights came on I can stand infront of the tank and count all 7 of the just out and exploring, which is a big relief.
 
I have read quite a bit on them, it wasn't a impulse buy, I ordered them because they seemed like the best sized and entertaining fish to suit my tank.  But I will check out the links you sent.
 
When you moved them from Q to a permanent tank, the whole thing changed and they were almost at square one again. The top loach is going to be challenged as much as the rest and is going to spar the hardest to keep the number 1 spot. Not only is this the case but over time the fish will constantly recheck things to make sure they cannot move up a rung. These subsequent fights tend not to last as long as the initial ones. They can also start up seriously if more fish are added to the group and the pecking order much work its way through this. But all of this will end up showing episodes of rapid breathing
 
The fact that you seem to be seeing that the symptoms may not have been symptoms and that they are now out more may simply be due to adapting to the new setup. What helps to keep loaches out and active is that they feel safe. And they feel this way because they know at a moments notice they can bolt for cover. It takes them time to settle into new surroundings. You should also find that no matter how outgoing they are, when its time to clean the tanks they will all suddenly vanish.
 
Yes, these are a loach that is active all over a tank. While I do not keep them, I do have sidthimunkis which are similar in this respect. And just like my big clowns loaches, these tiny guys also vanish when its tank cleaning time. One clue that helps and which you can bear in mind is that most fish when starved for oxygen will head for the surface. this would be especially true of fish that are normally active up top (as well as on the bottom). Think about nitrite poisoning. The fish is starving for O even though there is plenty in the water and they are all at the surface gasping. The fact you saw none of this would indicate that even though breathing rapidly, they were not at the surface and may not have been abnormally short of O, just under temporary stress which will often have the same result- rapid breathing.
 
Loaches do breath fast when stressed or sparring or even overly active. This is not the same thing as being unable to breath properly. Sick fish tend to hide and stay that way and they often will not eat.
 
Based on your last post I would tend to think there really is no disease or infestation issue, just normal loach behavior. Until one gets used to how any fish acts under normal conditions, it is not a huge leap to misinterpret normal behavior as a problem because in another fish it just might be.
 
Have you seen them laying on their side on the bottom napping yet? That still freaks me out to this day- napping and being dead look very similar :p
 
Well I did another water change yesterday identicle to the first but they haven't changed thier behaviour in the slightest.  They didn't even hide when I was boggling about in the tank, or filling it up with new water.  And there are been no signs of stress or heavy breathing at all.
 
So I don't know, maybe there was somthing odd in the water the first time, maybe it was a bacterial infection that the eSHa cleared up, maybe I was just being paranoid and it was all natural behvaiour - who knows.  But luckily they now all seem back to their normal selves.  They shouldn't feel unsecure - the tank is heavily planted with lots of nooks and cranies for them to hide in and they have a shoal of harlequins above as well.  The only thing bigger than them in the tank is the plecs, and I've caught the naughty loaches having a nip at my biggest one on more than one occasion.  Poor plecs they are so gentle and just put up with the loaches swimming all over them, until they get a nip that is, then they swim away and the loaches scatter - interesting dynamics.
 
Yes I've caught them lying on their sides, I'd read about it beforehand, so wasnt too surprised.  Still have to fight the urge to tap the glass though.
 
Just an fyi. I have a number of clowns of now ood size and I discovered years ago that I could not keep bn plecos with them. It only cost me 5 albinos and my oldest breeder male who was out to pasture. Clowns and plecos live in the same spaces and they may not play well together.
 
Thanks, I'll keep an eye on them. If I ever get it set up the BN are destined for a different tank anyway. They are considerably bigger than the loaches right now and there should be plenty of space to keep them both happy for the meantime.  And as I said, there are plenty of hides and spaces to keep them occupied.  I have seen the loaches nip at the plecs a couple of times but the don't pursue them when they swim off, it more seems to be if they happen to be in the area they are exploring at that moment. 
 
I have to say in some ways the loaches are little terrors, I'm quite sure they are chasing the Harlequin rasbora at some points too.  Although cleary here the loaches do not have the advantage or the mobility at that height in the aquarium to do much.  I do love them to bits though.
 
I have seven clown loaches and three BN catfish and while they probably don't go to each other's houses for dinner they get on OK, taking it in turns to attack the cucumber.
 
Good news they seem better :) fingers crossed they stay that way now! I dont think you will ever be 100% sure of what happened, but at least you didnt loose any :) great job.
 
Shiny- it has nothing to do with numbers of clowns, it has to do with their size. Be patient, yours will grow and then the problems can start. My clowns were in the range of about 4 to 7 inches for the group when this happened.
 
I hope then, TTA, that my tank has enough hiding places for both species, I should hate for my 10-year-old BN catfish to be 'got', or the two new females.
 

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