One Of My Loaches Doesn't Look Great :(

[star4]

Fingers crossed, let me know how you get on.

 

[star4]

Any changes yet?

 

[shrimply]

No Star,
 
Third treatment is going in this morning but I have 3 that are hiding away and breathing heavliy, no other symptoms or anything visibly wrong with them.  They are all still alive though I think, don't want to speak to soon though.
 
Not seeing any issues in the other fish, really don't know what to do.

 

[star4]

So another one has come down with heaving breathing?? this doesnt sound right at all. ok totally stupid question, check the date on the medication you used to treat the flukes just in case (I have been caught out with an out of date med before). See if you can find a batch number and contact the manufacture to find out when it was made, I believe some medications can loose their strength over time (no evidence to prove so, but asking the manufacture may help). Everything you say still points to gill flukes/gill damage. If I was in your position I would be tempted to try another fluke medication just in case they have some resistance to the first one you tried, highly improbable I think but it might be something to consider.

 

[shrimply]

Hi Star, I think there are 3, honestly its so hard to tell.  Trying to establish that I still have 7 living is challenging, there are so many places for them to hide in the tank and they are all fairly similar looking.  I sort of thought I'd seen some improvement that one of the rapidly breathing ones was a bit more active but this could well be wishful thinking and it's just so hard to tell.
 
The flubenzadole doesn't expire until 2019 and I bought it new so its not been sitting around open, so this shouldn't be a problem. I guess it's possible it's been exposed to some extreme conditions that have rendered it useless but how likely is that really....
 
Additionally the eSHa 2000, which has a 2018 expiry, claims it will treat also skin and gill parasites.  I think if the problems persit I'll try a 4th dose of the eSHa 2000 tomorrow.  The only thing here is that I have still been letting the lights come on in the tank for 8 hours a day, although not at full brightness, as I'd rather keep the plants alice too, there is nothing on the bottle about decomposition in light being an issue but I guess it's possible.
 
After the eSHa I really don't know what to do.  I have a bottle of Sterazin sitting, although not quite enough to treat the whole tank for the full course of treatment. I could lower the water level a bit though.  I feel a bit like I'm blindly throwing medication at them though which is maybe not a great stratedgy, if there's anything I'm missing I just can't work out what it is.
 
This breathing has being gone on for nearly a week now, everything I've read suggests that I should be seeing other symptoms, like red and inflammed gills, which I'm not. *Sigh*

 

[star4]

It was worth checking, yes I agree the chances of the medication being "off" in any way is pretty rare, although my local shop does store medications behind the counter which get exposed to sunlight so it can happen but most is stored correctly, Just thought I would check with you.
 
If I remember right with the esha 2000 you can continue dosing half dose for upto 7 days if you needed to (Please dont take my word on that read the instructions as I am going of the old grey matter )
 
Everything I come up with too mean you seeing red inflamed gills, other fish infected etc other than a birth defect making them breath heavy which it is not because now a 3rd is showing signs, and two with a birth defect giving the same symptoms is such a long shot.
 
I know blindly throwing medication in a tank is not good, but sometimes it is a must when the cause is not 100% known (hence why esha 200 is usually pretty good), but if that is not working this leads me back to a problem with water changes. Sorry kind of thinking and typing at the same time here .OK in the quarantine tank you had no substrate, do they have sand or gravel now? is there anything significantly different from their quarantine tank to this one?
 
Sorry again for more questions than answers, this is just too strange, I am just trying to help you figure out what is going wrong

 

[shrimply]

No screw it, I've just seen my plec flashing, I'll do a water change tomorrow and start with the sterazin I think.  Unless anyone has any better ideas, it has to be flukes I think, although how I have no idea

 
Sorry just seen your reply, they are on fine gravel in the main tank compared to bare bottom in the quarantine, it's fairly heavily planted but there isn't any other differences.  Oh well there is, I wasn't using water conditioner in the quarantine tank in the end, because of the medication, just aired water.  But I find it hard to believe that is the problem, I can hardly stop using water conditioner on the main tank in any case.
 
I can only think that the Flubenzadole didn't knock everything out and they are slowly multiplying in the main tank I really don't know though, it's all becoming a bit of a disaster.
 
Everything I read also says that by the time anything gets to the gills it's too late

 

[shrimply]

No, it just can't be gill flukes 
 
They've been like this for nearly a week, there is no inflammation, no red streaks, no mucus.  No nothing.  And they've been treated for flukes.
 
Which takes me back to water quality, but I can't see how it can be. I could take them out and put them back in quarantine, see if there is any improvement.  Problem is if its something that's got into the main tank I'll have to make sure it's totally eliminated.  I just don't know, this is a nightmare.

 

[star4]

I am in agreement with you, I cant see it being gill flukes either not after treatment. OK Try them in the QT tank again with the bare bottom and see what happens. I know loaches like sifting about in sand etc maybe (long shot) your fine gravel is either not fine enough for them or it has sharp bits in (thats sharp for them). See how they get on back in the QT tank for a week, note any improvements. Then if they do improve and the heavy breathing stops try a handful of gravel from your main tank in the QT tank, only a small amount so you can syphon it out again if the heavy breathing comes back again. If that happens then its the gravel and you can switch to sand (pain job). Other than that I just cannot think of any thing else to try or what it could be.
 
Keep an eye on the plec, hopefully its just a one off flick around the tank, my big common does occasionally. Hopefully its just that.
 
It seems no one else has any other ideas

 

[shrimply]

Thanks Star,
 
Haven't checked on the yet this morning - still in bed.
 
Getting them back into the quarantine tank is going to be a mission and a half, I'm really worried about overly stressing them out, which I will, the tank is heavily planted, they were hard enough to catch in the tiny quarantine tank after removing everything else.   Which is why I'm reluctant to do so, not that I'm throwing your advice back at you, just a bit worried about trying.  If I do, would you only separate the 3 that are ill or all of them?
 
I know the substrate is a possibility but I find it hard to believe.  I can't see how it could be related to breathing, unless it's purely stress.  And they were in the tank a week before symptoms showed.  And they were very happy and playful and active before that - which is why this is so upsetting everything seemed to be fine and they seemed totally comfortable in the main tank, they certainly weren't being bullied quite the opposite, they weren't against having a chase of the Harlequins or a little nip at the plecs and there certainly didn't seem to be any intra-group bullying either.  And if the substrate was causing issues wouldn't it be the same for all of them.  Although I do struggle to tell them apart  I'm sure its the same 2/3 that are displaying the symptoms.
 
And again if we go back to water quality, this doesn't seem to add up either - again I could go back to using untreated water in a QT tank but is it even possible.  I have a tub of Safe to start using once my other stuff is used up, so I could try this as well.  It's like grasping at straws...
 
I hope so too with the plec, I really do, I love my two plecs.  My other concern is that if it is anything more sinister, stopping treatment may be the worst possible thing to do. 

 

[shrimply]

Well I've lost one - unfortunately I do mean lost.  Head count is only 6 as far as I can tell but even with a thorough search I can't find the 7th, dead or alive.  So who knows

 
Might just be wishful thinking but I'm pretty sure all 6 came to investigate the bit of food I just dropped, which is an improvement over 5.  Wondering if I should just continue with the eSHa 200 for a few more days and see what happens.  I could do a large water change and then a full dose of the eSHa 2000 again ( I don't think I need to be too worried about over dosing, they do say you can double the dose in difficult cases).

 

[shrimply]

I stand corrected, I still have 7, and whats more all 7 appeared to feed, apparently hikari loach pellets are that irresistable.  Has to be a good sign.
 
So for just now I've just added another half dose of the eSHa 2000.

 

[star4]

Oh I appreciate your concerns about moving them again, I certainly don't think your throwing my advice back , Just trying to come up with some options to try and figure out what on earth is going on for you. Not very helpful or easy options I admit This option was if the esha 2000 does not do anything (which fingers and toes crossed it does).
 
Going back to if it is something to do with the water changes that are only affecting them (another long shot here) once you have completed the course of esha do you use activated carbon? if not that might be worth a try just in case its something in tap water that is upsetting them. I dont have a lot of experience with wild caught fish, those I have that are have been in treated tap water for a long time before I got them. I am thinking if they are really freshly caught wild fish, they maybe struggling to adjust?? (again long shot, straw clutching lol)
 
I think its a good sign they have all been out eating, How is the Plec? fingers crossed this is a sign the esha 2000 is working.

 

[shrimply]

Morning, well I can't really give an update, I may go down in a bit and turn the lights on and drop in some food to get an idea of what's going on - I don't like doing this though, I feel it messes up their daily cycle, but it is the only way to see what's going on.
 
Looking into the tank I can see a couple that seem to have increased breathing but I don't think it's as rapid as it was, and they don't seem to be as jumpy as they were and are more active - providing these are the same ones.  The real question is though, is this the eSHa clearing up some infection, or whatever they don't like in the water dissipating.  In any case I think the best course of action is to neglect water changes and keep treating with the eSHa for the time being until the fish stablise, if they do.  Given the size of the tank, the light stocking, the number of plants and the fact I've stopped adding fertliser it should be fine without a water change for a good length of time.
 
I'm not really sure about these fish's history - I've read a lot of them are wild caught and they came directly from a wholesaler so they've never been in tanks in a fish store but that's as much as I know.  As you say they may not be used to tap water but given these symptoms didn't arise in quarantine when I was gasing off the chlorine its more likely to either be the water conditioner (which i admit is old and probably well out of date) or something once off that arose in the tap water.  As I say the water conditioner is old, but it hasn't affected the other fish, or upset the filters, so it is working, and my shoal of Harlequin rasbora are relitively new, so it isn't just a case of the fish being used to it.    There is so little left it doesn't bother me just chucking it just in case and I have Seachem Safe to start using - but I find it all a bit hard to believe.
 
I don't use carbon in my filters, don't really believe in chemical filtration.  However, for that reason I do still have the carbon pads that came with the filters, so could easily give this a go.  It's something I should really buy, but I do have some somewhere.  It always seems very wasteful never really knowing how much is needed or when it needs replaced.  And nobody seems to know how much to use, or how long it lasts etc  And generally the plants should take on the role of the carbon I believe - they'd certainly suffer long term with its use.  However, as a way of eliminating water quality issues it's definitely worth a shot.
 
The plecs visibly appear fine, I'm not sure I'd notice heavy breathing on them though?? What I can say is it's very easy to get a good look at their gills when they are feeding on the glass and there is no sign at all of inflammation or infection.
 
So plan of action I think, is
1)Keep Watching And Hoping
2)Treat with eSHa and avoid water changes until things appear normal
3)Change water using an alternative product
4)Add carbon if problem arises again
 
There is the small problem though that it may be an infection that is clearing up, but that if they find the water changes stressfull, may flair up again. And then I'm back to the same cycle and not really knowing whats going on.  Fish, who'd have them, and I love these little guys, they have so much character.

 

[star4]

I have been thinking about what you said before about you live in an old cottage! and the water changes. I found this piece 
http/www.fishchannel.com/fish-health/healthy-aquariums/water-conditioners.aspx
 
But is does throw up more questions than answers, the section on de-gassing not working with chloramine would have made them breath heavy in QT?? the main bit that caught my attention was about metals leaching into the water from old pipes if there has been no flow for 8 hours or so. Now if you have old pipework and when you did the wc the taps hadnt been run for a while, this could be a cause. Which would be a one off (hopefully).
 
I think following your plan of action is the best option. I am not a fan of using carbon long term as you say you never know exactly when it is "full", but its an option that may help.
 
Let me know how you get on