On Death Row

[Kitikat]

Hi everyone, I wonder if any one could help me here. Below is a list of the fish I have had and lost and the ones with (1) have survived. To cut a long story short, (I know I probably bought too many in a short space of time) They got white spot from 24th December and since then I have been treating them daily with white spot plus. The last two with white spot died today.

However, now I have noticed my platys seem to be getting fin rot on their tails. I thought things were improving, then today I noticed the water was cloudy. I did the water tests and everything seemed to be in order, so I did a 30% water change and introduced the water solution to take out any chemicals plus fin rot. Literall 10 minutes after the water change three of my fish suddenly died.

I had a quaranteen tank all up an running in any case and I decided to transfer my fish to this tank while I try to find out what to do next. All the time that the fish have had white spot i took out the black sponge to the filter, I have a Rio 180 fish tank. I did change the white spounge at the top, and I took them all out and cleaned them the other day and thought things were getting better. Should I empty the tank completely and start again or what? Can someone give me an abbreviated summary of the fishless cycle as Im not sure I understand this fully, and if its appropriate here?






1 Danio Zebra M 8th December 2005 £1.29
1 Danio Zebra M 8th December 2005 £1.29

0 Tetra Kerri P 8th December 2005 £3.29 Deceased
0 Tetra Kerri P 8th December 2005 £3.29 Deceased (white spot)

0 Tetra Cardina 8th December 2005 £1.79 Deceased
0 Tetra Cardina 8th December 2005 £1.79 Deceased

1 Barb Ruby Black 9th December 2005 £2.99

0 Barb Tiger 9th December 2005 £1.79 Deceased (white spot)
0 Barb Tiger 9th December 2005 £1.79 Deceased (white spot)

0 Tetra X-Ray 9th December 2005 £1.49 Deceased (white spot)
0 Tetra X-Ray 9th December 2005 £1.49 Deceased (white spot)

0 Tetra Bleeding 9th December 2005 £2.99 Deceased (white spot)
0 Tetra Bleeding 9th December 2005 £2.99 Deceased (white spot)

0 Tetra Kerri P 11th December 2005 £3.29 Deceased (white spot)
0 Tetra Kerri P 11th December 2005 £3.29 Deceased (white spot)

1 Live B Platy 15th December 2005 £1.99
1 Live B Platy 15th December 2005 £1.99
1 Live B Platy 15th December 2005 £1.99
1 Live B Platy 15th December 2005 £1.99

0 Tetra Kerry 15th December 2005 £3.29 Deceased (white spot)

0 Loach Strata 15th December 2005 £3.99 Deceased (white spot)
0 Loach Strata 15th December 2005 £3.99 Deceased (white spot)

0 Coryd Albino 15th December 2005 £2.79 Deceased (white spot)
0 Coryd Albino 15th December 2005 £2.79 Deceased (white spot)

0 Liveb Sword M 17th December 2005 £1.99

0 Rainbow Boesma 17th December 2005 £4.28 Deceased (white spot)
0 Rainbow Boesma 17th December 2005 £4.28 Deceased (white spot)

 

[tttnjfttt]

Fish often got sick when they are stressed. You said your tank was new, have you tested your water quality, as poor water quality is often a major stressor? Specifically, check ammonia and nitrite.

I'm not sure about your specific filter, but you said you took your blkac spounge. Does this hold the carbon? or is it just a spounge? If it is just a spounge, you need to put it back in, as this is where the bacteria will grow to break down the fish's waste.

You said you put chemicals in hte tank to get rid of everything, including the fin rot. Exactly what is it? On their tails, Does it look like there is fungus growing off of it? Or are they just looking shreaded.

And please, no more fish until everything is straightened out

 

[jasonskillz]

tats a lot of dead fish
ironicly im having a major water problem
dont want mine to die, too hard to find mine

 

[Kitikat]

Can anyone tell me anything I dont already know, as I said I have done a water change, treated the water, and before and after the water change tested the water with ok results. I was told to take the black spounge out because it was carbon.

So please can anyone give me some advice, but, please dont repeat what I have already said I have done in my first post.

Thank you

 

[diademhill]

Ok, did you cycle the tank prior to getting any fish? (I have to ask this but I know it wasn't cycled as if you had cycled it you would have added fish one day & the waited a couple of weeks before adding any more.)
I doubt it was whitespot that killed your fish. Whitespot is opportunistic but rarely attacks fish that are not already stressed. Yours will have been suffering ammonia & then nitrite poisoning.
IIWY I'd go back to square one.
what fish have you still got now? are they still showing signs of whitespot?
If they are, you need to do a 25% water change using only dechlorinator for the amount you replace and then re dose according to the meds instructions.
If not, do the water change anyway & count today as day one of a cycle with fish.
What test kits have you got & what readings have you had?
How did you precycle the hospiytal tanks filter.
Put some tapwater in a glass and let it stand for a few hours - test this to see what your tapwater is like as sometimes tapwater contains nitrates & you need to know what you are dealing with.
You will be testing up to daily for a few weeks and waterchanging loads.
There are plenty of links to cycling within this forum & a google search for the nitrogen cycle will bring up loads of info.
Get a syringe to measure out dechlorinator & meds. What water conditioner & what meds have you used?
Do you have a combi boiler or are you using a kettle to heat change water?
Do you have a glasss thermometer?
Sorry for all the questions but this is a puzzle & more pieces help to put the picture together.
Sue

 

[dwarfgourami]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

If I understand the situation correctly, you now have 1 barb, 2 danios and 4 platies surviving in your Rio 180.

Once the whitespot treatment is completed (according to instructions), you put in a new black sponge (yes, this is the carbon on Juwel tanks) to clear the vestiges of medication. Changing the filter floss at the top of the pile of sponges every week is fine, but the other sponges you should only wash out infrequently, say once a month and not at all for first month or two. This should be done in old tank water taken out when you do water change, not in tap water. And don't wash both sponges the same week.

The fishless cycle does not apply to you, as you still have fish in the tank, so the tank is cycling with fish. Cycling is the process whereby the ammonia excreted by the fish gradually encourages the growth of friendly bacteria which process first the ammonia into nitrites and then the nitrites into nitrates. In a cycled tank, with a full colony of bacteria, this conversion process is almost instantaneous, but in a cycling tank (one which has not yet got enough bacteria), the fish are swimming around in toxic amounts of ammonia and/or nitrites. You ameliorate their condition by frequent partial water changes.

The fishless cycle is simulating this situation by adding ammonia out of a bottle and not adding fish until the cycling process (growing friendly bacteria) is complete. But you already have the fish, so you can't go down that path.

Problems in your case may include the colony of bacteria being knocked out by the whitespot treatment; and your washing the filter sponges, as the bacteria mainly live in the filter. So the tank may well have a lot of cycling left to do. The fish that have survived are precisely the ones that are generally considered the hardiest.

You need to test the water daily and do frequent small water changes every time ammonia or nitrites go over 0.5 ppm. And make sure you use dechlorinator. Do not add any more fish until these chemicals stay permanently undetectable.

 

[karlp]

Hi

There are two main suspects here for that number of fish fatallities, neither of which are white spot:

1. Over dosing of medicines - White spot plus includes Formaldehyde which is nasty stuff. If you've been adding white spot plus every day, it could easily be at toxic levels for the fish. According to the instructions it should only be added on day 1 and 4. If you're going to be adding it more often, you need to be doing substantial water changes with each addition. Also you must only ever add one medicine at a time for the same reasons.

2. Non-cycled tank. Has your tank been running long ? If not it could well be that the Ammonia and Nitrite are at toxic levels in the tank.

I would recomend:

- Save some tank water in a jar to be tested later

- 75% water change with de-chlorinated water at the correct temperature (e.g, 24C)

- Don't add any more fish.

- Don't add any more medicine.

- Test the water for Ammonia and Nitrite....

- Update this thread with the results tomorrow if you can and we'll take it from there.

Hope that helps

 

[Kitikat]

Thank you everyone, your replies are very helpful indeed. Im really glad I have found this forum as the information you have supplied is so detailed and covers every avenue. I didn’t have access to this forum to see your replies this morning before I went out so I hadn’t read your replies this morning and so here is what I did.

Last night I transferred my remaining fish to the quarantine tank, where they seem to be doing fine. I didn’t know what to do with the original tank, and I suspected that it might be toxic so I emptied it completely except for the gravel, and then I refilled it. I used a hose pipe from the outside tap to refill it and I included warm water from the inside tap, and put in the water conditioner. I did take out all the filters and washed them under the tap and the plants too(this was before I saw your posts) and I replaced the black carbon and the two white ones. I have left it on and await further instructions from you lot.

I did talk to a man in the pet shop today and he said that I used the Fin Rot and Fingi treatment which can sometimes have an adverse affect on the fish. He thinks it is this that may have killed them yesterday. The good news is that I don’t see any further signs of fin rot on my platys.

So I need to know now what I should do next, should I introduce each fish back to the tank one by one and when?

Below are my water readings, but, remember now I have done a complete water change.



14-Dec PH 7.5
14-Dec NO3 4.4
14-Dec NO2 7.5
14-Dec AMONIA 0

21-Dec PH 7.8 7.5 Aquarium Pharmaceuticals PH DOWN
21-Dec NO3 5
21-Dec NO2 0.5 0 Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Nitro Zorb
21-Dec AMONIA 1 0 Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Stress Zyme

15-Jan PH 7.2 7.5 Mollies & swordtails prefer 7.2 to 7.5
15-Jan PH High 7.5 ideal
15-Jan NO3 0
15-Jan NO2 0.5 0 drops to 0 as tank is established
15-Jan AMONIA 0 0

 

[karlp]

Hi

There is one possible problem now. Washing the filter under the tap instead of using a bucket of tank water could have killed all the beneficial bacteria because of the chlorine in the water. This might mean you have to cycle the tank from the beginning again.

I would suggest:

- Put the fish back in the main tank

- Try asking your local aquatic shop if they'd let you have a bit of mature filter media from their system to 'seed' yours. If you're lucky and they let you have some, you could put this in your filter to help jump start the cycle. This should shorten the cycle to about a week, otherwise if you've lost all your bacteria it'll be around 36 days to cycle.
- Do daily water tests and as you see the ammonia and nitrite rising, do 50% water changes on each day until the ammonia and nitrite finally fall to 0 again.

Keep an eye on the fish in the mean time. If any of the fish start developing white spot or fungus, put one treatment in the tank only and follow the instructions for dosing carefully. White spot is the most contagious so is the more important to watch. You can always treat the fish with fungus in the hospital tank separately.

Once the tank is fully cycled, you can start adding a few fish each week up to the safe stocking level for your tank.

Good luck!

Karl.

 

[Kitikat]

Thank you Karl, but, shouldn't I allow the tank to mature a little more first! I refilled it yesterday about 4pm so its been less than 24 hours?

 

[lavapeanut]

kitikat, sorry to hear all those things happened to your poor fishes..

I am new so if I am wrong please forgive me...

My opinion would be either suggest you to do fishless cycle to your main tank (since your already clean out beneficial bacterial colonies by washing all the things with tap water as well as refilled the whole tank with tap water)

OR as Fishy Mad said, put fish into your main tank now (but maybe few of them first?) Since without 'food' from waste that fishes produced, those bacterial colonies will starve, if there is still some beneficial bacteria left, they need ammonia to be feed on.

good luck

P.S. if I said something wrong somebody point that out for me will be good, so I can learn as well.

 

[karlp]

Thank you Karl, but, shouldn't I allow the tank to mature a little more first! I refilled it yesterday about 4pm so its been less than 24 hours?

OK. I'm kind of presuming that your hospital tank doesn't have a mature filter and it could be pretty small. I'm also assuming that the Rio 180 is now at the correct temperature and has been dechlorinated, but we all know what assumption is... so...

How big is your hospital tank ?
does your hospital tank have a mature filter ?

If it's just a case of the dechlorinated water being 24 hours old, it doesn't really matter in my experience, providing you acclimatise the fish correctly (put fish in bucket with 3 inches of water, syphon water from main tank into bucket using air hose with a clamp so it just drips in. After about an hour, the water level in the bucket should be around half to 2/3rds full. Then scoop the fish out of the bucket one at a time with a net and put in main tank). Obviously be carefull not to chill the fish, so have a heater on hand if the temperature in the bucket drops.

If you're going to cycle the tank with your remaining fish, it's going to be a lot less stressful for the fish to be used in cycling the 180 litre Rio rather than the hospital tank, because the ammonia and nitrite ppm levels will be much more diluted in the bigger tank, so you should get smaller spikes.

 

[Kitikat]

Thank you for your help I have returned the fish to the big tank, they seem to be doing fine for now! So the quaranteened tank would it be ok to turn it off, I do want to get more fish but will wait a few weeks, so, if i turned the heater and pump off in the quaranteen tank how long would i have to have it up and running again if i introduced more fish and can I use the same water as these fish were in when they were in it?

 

[karlp]

Hi Kitikat

I would suggest that by all means dismantle the quarantine tank, but can I suggest that you put the filter from the quarantine tank in the main tank to allow it to mature alongside the main filter. If you don't add any fish for a month, it will allow both filters to mature, so when you do finally want your quarantine tank again, the quarantine filter will be mature.

In my view, it's always worth having the quarantine filter in the main tank when the quarantine tank is not in use PROVIDING your quarantine tank hasn't just been the host of some nasty disease or parasite. This keeps the beneficial bacteria alive on the quarantine filter, so the quarantine tank can be set up at a moments notice without putting the already stressed fish in the quarantine tank through the 'cycling' process, which could kill them (kind of defeats the object of the quarantine tank).

Over the next month you'll need to monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels in the main tank regularly. You should see the Ammonia rising and then after a few days it will start to fall and you will see the nitrite then rise. When the nitrite returns to zero, the tank is safe for more fish. so as not to stress the fish (and suffer more casualities) during the cycle, do more regular partial 25% water changes. If you want to speed this process up, see if you can get some mature filter media from your LFS or a friend and put it in the filter with the other sponges.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Kitikat]

thank you karl, brilliant advice, thank you. The filters in the big tank have to be placed in a certain order, my quaranteen tank is much smaller and therefore so are the filters, so should i just place them on top of the original filters in the big tank this means i would have 2 carbon filters and also extra white filters is this ok? They are looking so well today, also do you know any good websites where they sell good fish that are kept well and delivered, Im in the UK by the way. Its just that the pet shops near me dont seem to have much variety, or is it not a good idea to buy over the net.