Old Time Riverman
- Thread starter BigC
- Start date
Hold on,
On reflection (what a pun
) I cant use the marine tubes as the aquarium will be open topped with no cover-glass as before so I'd be ultra wary of electrical shock as those tubes got really hot and I had to use fans.
So that said can you recommend to me a complete lighting setup from scratch, looks like I'm going to have to get a new starter or double starter unit and new tubes.
So if you can give me an indication of what I need, bearing in mind the constraints of the cabinet canopy which is 24 inches long which means I can only play with 15" or 18" long tubes this narrows me down to 15"=15w tube or 18"=18w tube these are both T8
I can get T5's in 24watt=15" & 28watt=18" which will also fit.
Question is which ones and how many.
Sorry if I'm taking up a lot of your time, the thirst for knowledge is great.
C
-
On reflection (what a pun
) I cant use the marine tubes as the aquarium will be open topped with no cover-glass as before so I'd be ultra wary of electrical shock as those tubes got really hot and I had to use fans.So that said can you recommend to me a complete lighting setup from scratch, looks like I'm going to have to get a new starter or double starter unit and new tubes.
So if you can give me an indication of what I need, bearing in mind the constraints of the cabinet canopy which is 24 inches long which means I can only play with 15" or 18" long tubes this narrows me down to 15"=15w tube or 18"=18w tube these are both T8
I can get T5's in 24watt=15" & 28watt=18" which will also fit.
Question is which ones and how many.
Sorry if I'm taking up a lot of your time, the thirst for knowledge is great.
C
-
Hold on,
On reflection (what a pun
So that said can you recommend to me a complete lighting setup from scratch, looks like I'm going to have to get a new starter or double starter unit and new tubes.
So if you can give me an indication of what I need, bearing in mind the constraints of the cabinet canopy which is 24 inches long which means I can only play with 15" or 18" long tubes this narrows me down to 15"=15w tube or 18"=18w tube these are both T8
I can get T5's in 24watt=15" & 28watt=18" which will also fit.
Question is which ones and how many.
Sorry if I'm taking up a lot of your time, the thirst for knowledge is great.
C
-
No problem at all, C, drink away... I'm glad to help.
You're gonna hate me... You'd be fine with stock lighting, seriously, you would, but if you must have more light, if it were me, I'd either do the 24W of T5 or the 18" 28W T5 and only 1 bulb. Or two bulbs of 15W T8 evenly spread in the canopy. It's the spread of light, not so much the intensity. If you keep the lighting levels lower, coupled with CO2, ferts, and flow, you're looking at an easy to maintain tank where you can grow pretty much what you want and the growth will be pretty manageable. At least this is the current trend of thought. I'll let you sip on this for a bit, as I've got sign off for a spell (wedding slave duties,
). But someone should be by later to either shoot down everything I've said or support it. Yes, electricuted BigC not a good thing. Although, my current tank's open-topped, but I live very dangerously...
Hmmm that sounds interesting and cost effective, which makes a change, I'll maybe go for two bulbs of 15W T8 evenly spread in the canopy with timers and reflectors.
Now for Photoperiods Can you give me a specific hourly photoperiod for the day.
What is best for the plants.
So thats the Water, Lighting and the Flow noted and sorted once the above loose ends have been answered.
The CO2 bits n bobs I will collect as I go along. Anyone like to come in on the topic of cheap Far Eastern imports of regs, diffusers, reactors and return valves on Fleabay.
Would anyone recommend getting a solenoid valve and timer or is it really not a necessity. I know it will extend the life of my CO2 cylinder usage but will it drop the pH too low over night.
Regards
C
Now for Photoperiods Can you give me a specific hourly photoperiod for the day.
What is best for the plants.
So thats the Water, Lighting and the Flow noted and sorted once the above loose ends have been answered.
The CO2 bits n bobs I will collect as I go along. Anyone like to come in on the topic of cheap Far Eastern imports of regs, diffusers, reactors and return valves on Fleabay.
Would anyone recommend getting a solenoid valve and timer or is it really not a necessity. I know it will extend the life of my CO2 cylinder usage but will it drop the pH too low over night.
Regards
C
Best reflectors are not mirrors but white, so that you know, at least that is what I've heard bantered about here. I've not paid much attention to them since I seem to have enough light and I'm not overly concerned with effective spread most of the time. If I have too much, I actually then want it to be inefficient somewhat, like I suspect my new ones are. Photo periods have changed since you did planted stuff last. Used to be that 12 hours was normal, now, most of us in the hobby tend to hover between 4-8, depending on plant mass and light intensity. Plants want to make food when the lights are on. Current thinking, again, I could be wrong, but I have a tendency to really simplify things. The longer the lights are on, the longer they have to make food, the more they need from the water column or the substrate. So you have to dose CO2, and dose ferts to compensate, cause well, the factory's open! If you're not constantly dosing, you run into trouble, and the plants do poorly. Now, if you cut the photoperiod, which many of us do now, the plants don't have to spend some much making food (factory's closed) and there's more nutrients in the tank. The plants are then, not as hungry and do better because they always have what they need. Now, you wonder if all this nutrients causes algae, no it usually doesn't, at least that's the impression I'm getting from the material I've read. Again, probably oversimplifying and probably Andy will be lurking around to correct me.
Usually it's due to fluctuating CO2, too little CO2, ammonia spikes, or flow issues in the aquarium. This has been my experience anyways. For example, my 36g, Endor, has BGA in the substrate. This happened because I stopped dosing TPN+ because I new I was going to dismantle it, and I removed a filter to prevent some small fish species from getting sucked the intake tube, which created dead spots in the tank. Again, take all of this with a grain of salt, as my reasoning could be all wrong. A techie like Andy Cole, or ianho will come by and explain it better, I'm sure. I'm what they call, "basically right". Which is all I need. So, how does this effect your photoperiod? Some little guidelines, again based on my observations and experience regarding photoperiods... I could be wrong. Yes, I say this a lot because I'm not as scientific as everybody else is. I just grow plants...
1. The higher the plant mass - the longer the photoperiod can be
2. The lower the plant mass - the shorter the photoperiod
3. The lower the light intensity - the longer the photoperiod
4. The higher the light intensity - the shorter the photoperiod.
5. The older the setup - the longer the photoperiod
6. The newer the setup - the shorter the photoperiod
Photoperiods are not set, nothing is in this hobby. I started my 8g CO2 tank, with a 4 hour photoperiod (higher light, not sure about the plants, new tank), by the end of it's run, it was doing great with around 7 hours (mature tank, high plant mass). Endor always ran on 7-8 hour photoperiod (high plan mass, low light density, mature tank). Some are now pushing their systems to 9 and 10 hours, but most don't go past 10 hours. Siesta's are a thing of the past. Doesn't really work. If you start with say 6 hours, you can gradually, over time, increase it by half hour increments. So, that's why I bugged you so much about lighting and what you wanted to accomplish initially. Selecting your lighting, flow, and your eventual goals (plant mass & maintenance allowance) is the top priority in my book. Everything else becomes kind of secondary, IMO.
Hope this helps a wee bit.
Liz
SuperColey1
Planted Section
Lol. Llj is basically right. he, he.
Not overly convinced by the photoperiod length reasoning though. I don't know anyone (apart from one) that uses a 4 hour photoperiod other than at the very beginning.
Not too sure it relates to the actual plantmass either. As long as its heavily planted, over 75% of substrate viewed from above (including those not in substrate like anubias ferns etc) then its basically a one thumb rule of 8-10 hours is all that is needed. More opens the door to algae possibilities even in a balanced tank.
There may be something in incredibly heavily planted tanks being able to use more light without problems (I use 9) however I would suggests its more an intensity thing than the duration. 4WPG for 4 hours will be hard to deal with 2WPG for 8 hours not so if you get my drift
And yes white is a better reflector than a mirrored surface. Mirrors reflect images better but like with Lumens not being light, neither is a reflection
There's a good thread on barrreport where someone who worked at NASA was saying this. An exmpale he used was that lots of houses in America used to be painted absolute white. In the summer everyone was blinded wherever they went and hence why it is nigh on impossible to buy absolute white paint. Brilliant white is about the closest but most of those wooden houses are now painted in a slightly 'off' white
So basically concentrate more on the flow, CO2 and nutrient. Forget about light. The plants will adapt to what is available if low but you don't want to get too high.
Even in non CO2 tanks nutrient and CO2 are important. An organic undisturbed substrate rots and expels CO2. A good organic high CEC substrate is what you want as it will soak up any nutrient there is that isn't instantly utilised by the plants whilst adding some 'free CO2' at the same time.
Thats the main reason why ADA AS is so succesful. Yes they bang a load of nutrient in at the start however that isn't really necessary. Its the ability of it being a clay to absorb/adsorb nutrient from the water column dosing that is the significant longevity factor. It may use up what was initially there but it also soaks up more from the water column and therefore never depletes. Others that are not nutrient rich at the start but so the 'soaking up part still are Tropica and some in the far east use Akadama however I've not done much research on that nor useed it. You'ld need to do a spot of research there. I've had Tropica under playsand UNCHANGED since September 2007 and see no need to replace it still after more than 3 years
AC
Not overly convinced by the photoperiod length reasoning though. I don't know anyone (apart from one) that uses a 4 hour photoperiod other than at the very beginning.
Not too sure it relates to the actual plantmass either. As long as its heavily planted, over 75% of substrate viewed from above (including those not in substrate like anubias ferns etc) then its basically a one thumb rule of 8-10 hours is all that is needed. More opens the door to algae possibilities even in a balanced tank.
There may be something in incredibly heavily planted tanks being able to use more light without problems (I use 9) however I would suggests its more an intensity thing than the duration. 4WPG for 4 hours will be hard to deal with 2WPG for 8 hours not so if you get my drift
And yes white is a better reflector than a mirrored surface. Mirrors reflect images better but like with Lumens not being light, neither is a reflection
There's a good thread on barrreport where someone who worked at NASA was saying this. An exmpale he used was that lots of houses in America used to be painted absolute white. In the summer everyone was blinded wherever they went and hence why it is nigh on impossible to buy absolute white paint. Brilliant white is about the closest but most of those wooden houses are now painted in a slightly 'off' white
So basically concentrate more on the flow, CO2 and nutrient. Forget about light. The plants will adapt to what is available if low but you don't want to get too high.
Even in non CO2 tanks nutrient and CO2 are important. An organic undisturbed substrate rots and expels CO2. A good organic high CEC substrate is what you want as it will soak up any nutrient there is that isn't instantly utilised by the plants whilst adding some 'free CO2' at the same time.
Thats the main reason why ADA AS is so succesful. Yes they bang a load of nutrient in at the start however that isn't really necessary. Its the ability of it being a clay to absorb/adsorb nutrient from the water column dosing that is the significant longevity factor. It may use up what was initially there but it also soaks up more from the water column and therefore never depletes. Others that are not nutrient rich at the start but so the 'soaking up part still are Tropica and some in the far east use Akadama however I've not done much research on that nor useed it. You'ld need to do a spot of research there. I've had Tropica under playsand UNCHANGED since September 2007 and see no need to replace it still after more than 3 years
AC
SuperColey1
Planted Section
And very well too
And very well too
Despite apparently knowing nothing...
I shall change my name to "miracle-worker"
I'm right about the twin T8's though, right? Better than 55W CF's
Cheers Andy and Liz, some interesting angles to ponder over. Seems light is not the messiah as I had always thought.
This gives me some better opportunities and allows me more space within the canopy not needing multiple tubes.
Staying on the subject, can I in essence have the two tubes Liz suggests and place them on timers staggered by 1 hour intervals so as the startup and shut down instances are not severe or does this not really matter.
Sunrise/Sunset sort of scenario.
Regards
C
This gives me some better opportunities and allows me more space within the canopy not needing multiple tubes.
Staying on the subject, can I in essence have the two tubes Liz suggests and place them on timers staggered by 1 hour intervals so as the startup and shut down instances are not severe or does this not really matter.
Sunrise/Sunset sort of scenario.
Regards
C
SuperColey1
Planted Section
You're right about it all basically. 2 T8s are fine yep. What I started with is what I should have remained with but we all followed the 'must upgrade' route. lolDespite apparently knowing nothing...
I shall change my name to "miracle-worker"
I'm right about the twin T8's though, right? Better than 55W CF's
If Liz is suggesting 2 x T8s then yes thats fine. Its all that is needed coupled with reflectors. Sunset/sunrise is fine too. I do that myself in a ridiculously OTT way. lol
AC
You're right about it all basically. 2 T8s are fine yep. What I started with is what I should have remained with but we all followed the 'must upgrade' route. lolDespite apparently knowing nothing...
I shall change my name to "miracle-worker"
I'm right about the twin T8's though, right? Better than 55W CF's
Except me, of course. I upgrade when everybody downgrades, and vis versa...
If Liz is suggesting 2 x T8s then yes thats fine. Its all that is needed coupled with reflectors. Sunset/sunrise is fine too. I do that myself in a ridiculously OTT way. lol
AC
Oh, tell him, tell him. He'll love that.
I'm being serious, C, it's really cool what he does with the sunrise sunset... You might like it better. At any rate, you'll think it's cool.
hit me with it Andy...
SuperColey1
Planted Section
I think Llj assumes I like to brag Well I am quite proud of my setup but more a case of needing a little pat on the back here and there than bragging. lol
Currently (and for the foreseeable future) I have this LED setup that some bright spark (<------nice pun) built exactly 2 years ago.
Only 37W (1.1WPG), super efficient yet it will push a similar level of PAR to 3 or 4WPG of MH or flouro!!! Cost 3x as much as the DIY flouro alternative however uses a third of the electricity and should last for 5-10 years without needing any replacements.
Its that efficient and powerful that it is currently (on a non CO2 low tech setup) 13 inches above the water level and 26 inches above the substrate.
The way it is setup is that there are 15 LEDs. Each connceted in series of 3 so thats 5 series of 3.
Then they are run from left to right for sunrise and turned off left to right for sunset.
By that I mean every half an hour a series turns on from the left until all 5 are on. All 5 on for 5 hours and then every half hour a series turns off from left to right making light for 9 hours.
The way I am powering each series individually with their own timers may be a little inefficient but then I'm no electrician so thats about the best I can do on that part. lol
I'm sure you've read the DIY LED thread?
http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/264895-diy-whole-tank-led-lighting-retrofit/page__st__140
Right I'm off to bed to have some happy dreams.
AC
Well I am quite proud of my setup but more a case of needing a little pat on the back here and there than bragging. lolCurrently (and for the foreseeable future) I have this LED setup that some bright spark (<------nice pun) built exactly 2 years ago.
Only 37W (1.1WPG), super efficient yet it will push a similar level of PAR to 3 or 4WPG of MH or flouro!!! Cost 3x as much as the DIY flouro alternative however uses a third of the electricity and should last for 5-10 years without needing any replacements.
Its that efficient and powerful that it is currently (on a non CO2 low tech setup) 13 inches above the water level and 26 inches above the substrate.
The way it is setup is that there are 15 LEDs. Each connceted in series of 3 so thats 5 series of 3.
Then they are run from left to right for sunrise and turned off left to right for sunset.
By that I mean every half an hour a series turns on from the left until all 5 are on. All 5 on for 5 hours and then every half hour a series turns off from left to right making light for 9 hours.
The way I am powering each series individually with their own timers may be a little inefficient but then I'm no electrician so thats about the best I can do on that part. lol
I'm sure you've read the DIY LED thread?
http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/264895-diy-whole-tank-led-lighting-retrofit/page__st__140Right I'm off to bed to have some happy dreams.
AC
Biulu
Fish Aficionado
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2007
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My first tank was a 60 litre with 1 T8 15W tube (daylight 6500K) and an UGF. Never had algae issues, didn't dose and had great growth with vallis, swords, sags and anubias. Sometimes I would like to go back to these easy times.... So you should be absolutely fine with 2 lights. Photoperiod was 8 hours.
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