Noobie Fish Less Cycling

[fishman3]

Yes, I agree, don't worry about snails for now.

I'd worry more about that pH of 6.6 (you don't need to be using the high test kit, its meaningless unless the low kit reaches the highest number) as you may be getting very, very close to needing either a large water change to raise pH (what's the pH of your tap water?) or you may even have to consider using baking soda, but a large water change would be preferable unless your tap pH is as low or lower than your tank pH.

~~waterdrop~~

WD it appears you have the ability to see into the future!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a PH crash today to around 6.1 which i know is not good. I tested my tap water PH last time you asked and it was around 7.5 ish so i did a 75% ish water change tonight.

I re-loaded with ammonia to around 5/6ppm, put stress coat in to dechlorinate the new water, added stress zyme (please dont sigh it made me feel better in my moment of crisis!) and switched everything back on.

The tank has now been running for about 2 1/2 hours water temp is around 19oC and climbing but my PH is now at about 8.6! there is ammonia present, nitrItes around 5ppm and nitrAtes around 10ppm.

so i have a couple of questions...........

1) will my colony have been severely damaged by the crash and my subsequent remedial actions?
2) is 8.6 PH acceptable, and will this reduce / stabilise?

help please!!!

 

[OldMan47]

Ammonium hydroxide, the actual type of ammonia that we add, is a weak base so it has moved the pH up a bit. The high nitrites is a good sign, it means that some of the ammonia is already being processed nicely. The low pH for a short time will not have caused any damage at all to the cycle but will have slowed your progress while it was low. At 19C, your temperature is going to slow the cycle a bit. It will move much better at 25C or a little higher. As your nitrates build again, the pH will come down and the acidity of the nitrates will eventually overcome the KH of the water. In the meanwhile, you are building a nice colony of bacteria to process your ammonia and the resulting nitrites.

 

[fishman3]

Ammonium hydroxide, the actual type of ammonia that we add, is a weak base so it has moved the pH up a bit. The high nitrites is a good sign, it means that some of the ammonia is already being processed nicely. The low pH for a short time will not have caused any damage at all to the cycle but will have slowed your progress while it was low. At 19C, your temperature is going to slow the cycle a bit. It will move much better at 25C or a little higher. As your nitrates build again, the pH will come down and the acidity of the nitrates will eventually overcome the KH of the water. In the meanwhile, you are building a nice colony of bacteria to process your ammonia and the resulting nitrites.

ok guys well last week i cleaned out the tank and started again as my plants all died the ammonia didn't reduce over several days and the water looked awfull....! had a colonial die off i'm afraid.......

but things have moved on from there......!

I added the mature media on thursday although i have my suspicions about it (not sure it was all they said it was as some of it was dry and i had to ask them to put some tank water in with it so it didnt dry out on the journey home!!) anyway on friday i went to maidenhead acquatics near me and managed to get some bactinettes although they were 1 month out of date the assistant said that because the pearls were still black they would still be ok maybe just not as strong as usual! I got them really reduced for a couple of quid so thought it was worth a try!

I also added another 1/3 of my coldwater tank media (which i replaced with new) so i knew that i had some mature media in the filter that was legit (hopefully the replacement piece from the last time is now colonised and i havent got 2/3 of new media??? last 1/3 took almost 3 weeks ago).

The ammonia has reduced from around 5ppm to around 1ppm today and the nitrItes were showing this morning at about 0.1ppm and tonight at about 0.25ppm. the nitrAtes have gone from around 5ppm on friday to around 20ppm tonight.

I am a little excited as it looks to me that the ammonia is being eaten and the nitrItes too producing the final N in the nitrogen cycle (nitrAtes).

Hopefully the test in the morning shows further reductions in ammonia and the nitrItes either staying the same or reducing also with just the nitrAtes going up further....

The pH had also reduced from day 1 on tuesday at 7.5 to about 7.2 now so i got some crushed coral from my lfs and have added this to a compartment in my filter housing (in the lid of the tank). Will this increase my pH rapidly? and should i take it out once it reaches 7.5 again?

would love to know your thoughts on my progress guys.......

Thanks as always Phil.

 

[fishman3]

Ammonium hydroxide, the actual type of ammonia that we add, is a weak base so it has moved the pH up a bit. The high nitrites is a good sign, it means that some of the ammonia is already being processed nicely. The low pH for a short time will not have caused any damage at all to the cycle but will have slowed your progress while it was low. At 19C, your temperature is going to slow the cycle a bit. It will move much better at 25C or a little higher. As your nitrates build again, the pH will come down and the acidity of the nitrates will eventually overcome the KH of the water. In the meanwhile, you are building a nice colony of bacteria to process your ammonia and the resulting nitrites.

ok guys well last week i cleaned out the tank and started again as my plants all died the ammonia didn't reduce over several days and the water looked awfull....! had a colonial die off i'm afraid.......

but things have moved on from there......!

I added the mature media on thursday although i have my suspicions about it (not sure it was all they said it was as some of it was dry and i had to ask them to put some tank water in with it so it didnt dry out on the journey home!!) anyway on friday i went to maidenhead acquatics near me and managed to get some bactinettes although they were 1 month out of date the assistant said that because the pearls were still black they would still be ok maybe just not as strong as usual! I got them really reduced for a couple of quid so thought it was worth a try!

I also added another 1/3 of my coldwater tank media (which i replaced with new) so i knew that i had some mature media in the filter that was legit (hopefully the replacement piece from the last time is now colonised and i havent got 2/3 of new media??? last 1/3 took almost 3 weeks ago).

The ammonia has reduced from around 5ppm to around 1ppm today and the nitrItes were showing this morning at about 0.1ppm and tonight at about 0.25ppm. the nitrAtes have gone from around 5ppm on friday to around 20ppm tonight.

I am a little excited as it looks to me that the ammonia is being eaten and the nitrItes too producing the final N in the nitrogen cycle (nitrAtes).

Hopefully the test in the morning shows further reductions in ammonia and the nitrItes either staying the same or reducing also with just the nitrAtes going up further....

The pH had also reduced from day 1 on tuesday at 7.5 to about 7.2 now so i got some crushed coral from my lfs and have added this to a compartment in my filter housing (in the lid of the tank). Will this increase my pH rapidly? and should i take it out once it reaches 7.5 again?

would love to know your thoughts on my progress guys.......

Thanks as always Phil.

Sorry for the quick posts in succession but the last one was posted under my PH crash thread and i thought i needed to give you all the full background!

So on sunday the ammonia levels were down to around 0.1 iand the nitrItes were at about 0.25. I charged ammonia to around 5ppm and the NitrItes went up to around 0.5 - 0.75. This morning the ammonia is 0 and the NitrItes 0.25. I have charged the ammonia up again to about 3/4ppm (less load to see if the nitrItes can come down to 0) is this ok? My NitrAtes are between approx 40ppm now so i now the NitrItes are processing but why are they not hitting 0?

oh and after last time (pH crash) i have added crushed coral to my filter in an attempt to increase the water level pH, so far this has been holding steady at around 7.2 and not reducing to much like last time. Obviously a water change (soon i hope) will also help with this!

Appreciate your thoughts guys.

Phil

 

[OldMan47]

Some of the toughest time during a cycle is watching those nitrites just hang a bit higher than we want and just refuse to move down much. Many people become quite frustrated by it, but those that stay with it usually end up having good success.

The concern about getting a high pH is a valid one and you will want to watch how things go. If you find that you have pH going higher than you would like, you could reduce the amount of carbonate in the filter to slow things down. While you are cycling is a better time to experiment with the carbonate than after you have fish in the tank. There are several factors that go into the rate that the pH goes up with shell / coral. The first is how much of the carbonate is exposed to the water flow. Another factor is the pH itself, as the pH goes up, it will slow itself because less of the material will be able to dissolve. Another factor will be how much ammonia is being produced by your fish, or during a cycle, how much is being added. The nitrates will offset the carbonate in the water so a balance will develop. Another factor after the cycle will be how much water you change and how often because every time you do a water change you remove some of the dissolved coral from the tank and replace the water with some that does not contain much carbonate. For most of us, there is no clear analytical way to decide how much you need in your filter but if you are consistent with water changes and don't change the bioload rapidly, you can quickly figure out how much it takes to get the pH and KH fairly stable.

 

[fishman3]

Some of the toughest time during a cycle is watching those nitrites just hang a bit higher than we want and just refuse to move down much. Many people become quite frustrated by it, but those that stay with it usually end up having good success.

The concern about getting a high pH is a valid one and you will want to watch how things go. If you find that you have pH going higher than you would like, you could reduce the amount of carbonate in the filter to slow things down. While you are cycling is a better time to experiment with the carbonate than after you have fish in the tank. There are several factors that go into the rate that the pH goes up with shell / coral. The first is how much of the carbonate is exposed to the water flow. Another factor is the pH itself, as the pH goes up, it will slow itself because less of the material will be able to dissolve. Another factor will be how much ammonia is being produced by your fish, or during a cycle, how much is being added. The nitrates will offset the carbonate in the water so a balance will develop. Another factor after the cycle will be how much water you change and how often because every time you do a water change you remove some of the dissolved coral from the tank and replace the water with some that does not contain much carbonate. For most of us, there is no clear analytical way to decide how much you need in your filter but if you are consistent with water changes and don't change the bioload rapidly, you can quickly figure out how much it takes to get the pH and KH fairly stable.

woooohhoooooooo ammonia and nitrites down to zero two days in a row!!!!

added another 5/6ppm of ammonia this morning, hoping for a similar result tomorrow.

I have developed some green algae on the gravel in my tank and on the sides of the tank as well. Am i best to clean this off during my large water change or let this be eaten by my impending fish stock?

pH is holding between 7 and 7.2 for the time being with shell in the filter and using some API pH up solution.

Right so the big question, if my tank continues to do well (fingers crossed) how many days in a row should it process ammonia and nitrites down to zero before i can think about adding fish.

also I may be asking a silly question here but since i have been feeding my bacterial colony on 3-6ppm of ammonia regularly how many fish should i stock initially to maintain the colony and ensure that they are fed? I was going to start by putting in 4/5 corys and a couple of dwarf honey gourami's will this be enough of a load to continue feeding the colony?

appreciate your responses guy's!

Phil

 

[fishman3]

*bump*

 

[waterdrop]

Nice that ammonia and nitrites are getting dropped to zero, but the other essential bit of data to be posting right along with it is how many hours its taking to do this. Is it taking 24 hours or 12 hours? You want to note time of day in your log entry when you add ammonia so you can tell this when you re-measure later in the day.

If you're dropping 5ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and zero nitrite(NO2) in 12 hours then you can start your qualifying week.

Once you're cycled, the size of your bacterial colonies will maintain themselves to match whatever load of ammonia your fish stocking is providing. Its not something you need to worry about. The important thing is that the colonies need to be bigger initially than any initial load you would put in, thus the 5ppm guideline. Its actually more important that the initial colonies be bigger and more robust than the stocking in the beginning because the young biofilms they've formed are more fragile in a new colonization than they will be later after they've matured.

Algae is harmless to fish and is usually part of any healthy aquatic ecosystem, though sometimes in small amounts. Aesthetically though, people usually feel it detracts from the look they want. While its true you may end up with some species that eat enough of it to clean it up, usually hobbyists clean algae off quickly, to minimize its effect on the look of their tank. Personally I plunge my arm in and clean it off with a small aquarium sponge before each gravel clean. This can be done anytime for you, including at the big water change right before fish.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[fishman3]

Nice that ammonia and nitrites are getting dropped to zero, but the other essential bit of data to be posting right along with it is how many hours its taking to do this. Is it taking 24 hours or 12 hours? You want to note time of day in your log entry when you add ammonia so you can tell this when you re-measure later in the day.

If you're dropping 5ppm of ammonia to zero ammonia and zero nitrite(NO2) in 12 hours then you can start your qualifying week.

Once you're cycled, the size of your bacterial colonies will maintain themselves to match whatever load of ammonia your fish stocking is providing. Its not something you need to worry about. The important thing is that the colonies need to be bigger initially than any initial load you would put in, thus the 5ppm guideline. Its actually more important that the initial colonies be bigger and more robust than the stocking in the beginning because the young biofilms they've formed are more fragile in a new colonization than they will be later after they've matured.

Algae is harmless to fish and is usually part of any healthy aquatic ecosystem, though sometimes in small amounts. Aesthetically though, people usually feel it detracts from the look they want. While its true you may end up with some species that eat enough of it to clean it up, usually hobbyists clean algae off quickly, to minimize its effect on the look of their tank. Personally I plunge my arm in and clean it off with a small aquarium sponge before each gravel clean. This can be done anytime for you, including at the big water change right before fish.

~~waterdrop~~

Right so here is the next update, i have been cycling ammonia and associated nitrites from 5ppm to 0 for the last 3 days. I double checked the times today however, i will start my qualifying week from today just to be sure....

I did a large water change this evening 70% ish (made sure i used tap water conditioner so no mistakes at the final hour! ha ha ) and cleaned the algae (green and brown not sure if there is any significance on the colours?) checked the pH and it was around 7 ish added a bit of pH up liquid (which i have since found out is sodium bicarb 40% and 60% water!!!) also added ammonia 5ml to take my tank to 5/6ppm.

my nitrates after the water change are around 20ppm so must have been really high (not checked them for the last few days) which explains the algae bloom!

anyway fingers crossed that the morning brings nitrites so i can be calm that everything is ok in the colonies and a full reduction of the ammonia and nitrites in 12 hours.

The water temp is obviously a lot lower than the circa 30oC that it has been at for the last few weeks as a result of the water change (slowly climbing currently at around 16oC) will this slow the ammonia reduction for the first day of my qualifying cycle? should i start my qualification cycle tomorrow if this is the case?

as always thanks for your time and comments in advance guys!!

Phil

excited looks like are only around the corner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[waterdrop]

Again, the only thing that matters for knowing when you can start your qualifying week is whether you put 5ppm of ammonia in and then 12 hours later clearly measure zero ammonia and zero nitrite(NO2). Needs to be 12 hours or less.

Temp not being at the optimal 29C/84F might slow you down a bit but is usually not a very significant factor.

Your statement that high nitrates(NO3) caused your algae bloom is, unfortunately, naive. I think as beginners we all start out jumping from thing to thing that we think is the cause of algae. Besides nitrates, people often think its caused by excess light or excess phosphorus and lots of other things. I'm far from an expert myself but since being on here I've come to feel that when it comes to plants, lighting is a "skill set", fertilization is a "skill set", CO2 is a "skill set" and unfortunately algae is also a "skill set" that to some extent needs some of those previous three as a prerequisite, which is just another way of saying "its difficult."

Some of the experienced members in our planted tank forum make a strong case that algae is triggered by very small imbalances in ammonia. We're talking ammonia variations that are happening in a tank that measures zero ammonia with the API kit. If you think about it, even when our tests measure zero, there is of course, in a mature tank, ammonia flowing from the fish to the bacteria at all times. If that ammonia is able to collect in stagnant pockets, so the theory goes, it can be the trigger for algae to grab the opportunity and start growing. Algae is an ever present opportunist, just waiting for excess plant nutrients that are not be used up because some particular nutrient is deficient and serving as the limiting factor for the plant mass.

Having plenty of broad water movement, a careful plant nutrient schedule and having 70% or more of the substrate planted are all factors that move you in the right direction for avoiding algae I believe. Of course, I probably wouldn't worry much about this at your stage unless you want to. Its my opinion that understanding aquatic plants can be significantly more challanging than water chem or fish, so just thought it'd be interesting to throw out some thoughts.

~~waterdrop~~