Noobie Fish Less Cycling

[fishman3]

ok guys go easy please i am a noobie........

After having great success with a small (6-7g) tank i am hooked!! I had a real problem getting the ecology of the cold water tank correctly due to bad information from the larger stores in the uk like pets @ home. Anyway the challenge that it presented and the benefits my daughter now gets from this mini aquarium were well worth it..... so.....

I have recently purchased an aquastyle AR620 90 litre tank as a toy for myself which i have planted with approx 9 plants and 2 pieces (small pieces) of bogwood (1 with a plant growing on). I got the bogwood from my lfs direct from their tanks so as to help seed the tank filter media. The filter system is contained in the hood of the tank and has bio noodles, bio sponge and carbon and wool type material in two chambers, the water flows down through the first chamber from the power head and spray bar and up through the next chamber. Sorry if i am being too detailed, i havent even got to my question yet!!!

I have added stress coat and stress zyme to take the chlorine from the tap water and kick start the biological process (i know their are non believers in these products but i thought they carnt hurt any!!) after my tank cleared up (went cloudy for about a day or so) i have now begun the fishless cycle process as i believe it is the most humane way to go (nobody at the fish stores i have visited have recommended this btw they all seem to adopt the small hardy fish process first). I washed my cold water aquarium filter in the tank during the last water change as the ecology in my cold water tank is good and has even promoted the long fin zebra danios and my WCMM to try and spawn. (not interested in breeding just yet i may add).

Firstly i want to know if washing the filter through in my tank like this is effectively "seeding" my new filter or is it a waste of time?

secondly I'm not sure whether to use the wait method or the daily method and would like some of your thoughts. I know that this could depend on fish choices so i have put some of my initial ideas down below.

Lower layers - Corys, Amercian Flag Fish, Gobies
Middle layers - tetras (i know i need a well established ecology for these fish but i love them), celestrial pearl danios, dwarf honey gourami, guppies
Upper layers - hatchet fish and half beaks

third and finally, based on the thoughts i have of the fish i may stock (would love to have balas but i guess even if i got the small ones i would have to give them back once they had grown a little) are there any potential problems between these species.

Recommendations would also be very very welcome.

Thanks in advance for your help guys

Phil

 

[waterdrop]

Welcome to TFF Phil,

One of our members, oldman47, has given a very good description somewhere of washing one of his mature filters in the water of a new tank and getting good results using that as a "seeding" technique, so I expect it could be very effective for you. You realize of course that actual "use" of mature media, say 1/3 or less of some media from your coldwater tank would be the "gold standard" for seeding your new filter and speeding up the process.

Regardless of how effective or ineffective the seeding is, what's important is that you interact here and get help as your fishless cycle goes along so that you are sure in the end that you've had a good solid process and the filter will be fully cycled prior to fish. I think we are pretty good at helping members be sure that this is the case.

I see Miss Wiggle's name reading this thread, so I'll just stop here since it may take you hours to read her post if she gets going.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[fishman3]

Thanks waterdrop much appreciated and thanks for the warm welcome, i must say its the first i've had since i joined which is nice. i inadvertently high jacked a thread asking this question and was almost beaten severely for it!!! i was then told to bump or something so i started my own thread where everyone is welcome and no offence to hi jacking will ever be taken....!!

anyhow, the filter media in the small coldwater tank is only small should i cut it at the risk of not having enough media in this smaller tank in the future?

thanks again and apologies if i am asking silly questions but i want my fish to be healthy and safe!!!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

could be hours, could be one word...... had a few glasses of wine (we're celebrating, Ian's got a job!)

the measures you have taken so far can help boost your starter colony of bacteria and could consequently make your tank cycle faster, however the difference is unlikely to be seriously tangible unfortunately.

however as you have another tank you could much more effectively kick start things by taking a small amount of the media from the existing tank (no more than one third) and putting it straight into the filter for the new tank. You then need to start adding ammonia for your fishless cycle the same day.

Personally I would go with the add and wait method, the problem with the add daily method is that in the first week or so the ammonia doesn't drop by itself, if you keep adding 5ppm every day you'll quickly end up with 15ppm+ when ammonia gets above 8ppm the growth of the bacteria is actually inhibited so it can basically stall things a bit before you even get going. once you get past the first couple of weeks and the ammonia is dropping quickly you end up doing the same thing for both methods anyway.

replace the media that you take from the old tank with new media, buy a sponge and cut it down to fit.

 

[fishman3]

could be hours, could be one word...... had a few glasses of wine (we're celebrating, Ian's got a job!)

the measures you have taken so far can help boost your starter colony of bacteria and could consequently make your tank cycle faster, however the difference is unlikely to be seriously tangible unfortunately.

however as you have another tank you could much more effectively kick start things by taking a small amount of the media from the existing tank (no more than one third) and putting it straight into the filter for the new tank. You then need to start adding ammonia for your fishless cycle the same day.

Personally I would go with the add and wait method, the problem with the add daily method is that in the first week or so the ammonia doesn't drop by itself, if you keep adding 5ppm every day you'll quickly end up with 15ppm+ when ammonia gets above 8ppm the growth of the bacteria is actually inhibited so it can basically stall things a bit before you even get going. once you get past the first couple of weeks and the ammonia is dropping quickly you end up doing the same thing for both methods anyway.

replace the media that you take from the old tank with new media, buy a sponge and cut it down to fit.

thanks very much miss wiggle and congrats on ian getting a job!!!! happy days ahead ey...!

I added ammonia today to take it too ~4-5ppm, if i take the old filter media and take a third tomorrow and put it in my new filter should i add ammonia again tomorrow?

also as explained my filter is very complex (to me anyway) where should i put the adopted media? between the bio noodles and the bio sponge in the first chamber or second or between the bio sponge and the carbon/wool again first or second!

sorry if i am being silly just want to make sure i get it right!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

it really doesn't matter where it goes in your filter, just pop it somewhere that it fits!

just test again tomorrow, don't add any more ammonia until it drops to 0, that's of course presuming you take my advice and go with the 'add and wait' method.

 

[fishman3]

it really doesn't matter where it goes in your filter, just pop it somewhere that it fits!

just test again tomorrow, don't add any more ammonia until it drops to 0, that's of course presuming you take my advice and go with the 'add and wait' method.

of course i will be taking your advice and will put the adopted media in tomorrow, i actually have an old filter that i can cut to use as a replacement for the space left in the donor filter so all should be good!!!

i cant believe i didnt just think of that earlier sorry!!

thanks you have been a great help...

i will post my cycle results on here in a couple of days, how long do you think this cycle will take with the addition of adopted media? sorry im getting excited about actually having fish in there now....!

 

[Thommo]

could be hours, could be one word...... had a few glasses of wine (we're celebrating, Ian's got a job!)

the measures you have taken so far can help boost your starter colony of bacteria and could consequently make your tank cycle faster, however the difference is unlikely to be seriously tangible unfortunately.

however as you have another tank you could much more effectively kick start things by taking a small amount of the media from the existing tank (no more than one third) and putting it straight into the filter for the new tank. You then need to start adding ammonia for your fishless cycle the same day.

Personally I would go with the add and wait method, the problem with the add daily method is that in the first week or so the ammonia doesn't drop by itself, if you keep adding 5ppm every day you'll quickly end up with 15ppm+ when ammonia gets above 8ppm the growth of the bacteria is actually inhibited so it can basically stall things a bit before you even get going. once you get past the first couple of weeks and the ammonia is dropping quickly you end up doing the same thing for both methods anyway.

replace the media that you take from the old tank with new media, buy a sponge and cut it down to fit.

thanks very much miss wiggle and congrats on ian getting a job!!!! happy days ahead ey...!

I added ammonia today to take it too ~4-5ppm, if i take the old filter media and take a third tomorrow and put it in my new filter should i add ammonia again tomorrow?

also as explained my filter is very complex (to me anyway) where should i put the adopted media? between the bio noodles and the bio sponge in the first chamber or second or between the bio sponge and the carbon/wool again first or second!

sorry if i am being silly just want to make sure i get it right!

Hi Fishman

Congrat on getting your own thread
Who was threatning you. That will teach you for hijacking kidding!

Firstly you can add the ammonia if you like but I suggest that you have a read of the pinned article on fishless cycling in the new to hobby secion of the forum most helpfull and will help you decide if you want to add ammonia of now. IMO I would wait until it hits 0 ammonia and then put in another 4ppm.

Secondly, No one ever told me this either, but you really do not need the carbon in the filter. You only need it if you want to remove colours, medications, smells and some other things form the water. It is quite expensive and is only effective for a short time. You would be better off replacing the carbon with some more filter noodles or the like to increase your filter capacity. Carbon does act a media but deticated filter media is alot more effective.

You can put media anywhere in the filter. Just as long as there is water passing over it it will do the job. Just make sure you always have something that can catch the big bits of crap to stop it going into the media e.g. white mesh.

CHEERS
Thommo

 

[fishman3]

could be hours, could be one word...... had a few glasses of wine (we're celebrating, Ian's got a job!)

the measures you have taken so far can help boost your starter colony of bacteria and could consequently make your tank cycle faster, however the difference is unlikely to be seriously tangible unfortunately.

however as you have another tank you could much more effectively kick start things by taking a small amount of the media from the existing tank (no more than one third) and putting it straight into the filter for the new tank. You then need to start adding ammonia for your fishless cycle the same day.

Personally I would go with the add and wait method, the problem with the add daily method is that in the first week or so the ammonia doesn't drop by itself, if you keep adding 5ppm every day you'll quickly end up with 15ppm+ when ammonia gets above 8ppm the growth of the bacteria is actually inhibited so it can basically stall things a bit before you even get going. once you get past the first couple of weeks and the ammonia is dropping quickly you end up doing the same thing for both methods anyway.

replace the media that you take from the old tank with new media, buy a sponge and cut it down to fit.

thanks very much miss wiggle and congrats on ian getting a job!!!! happy days ahead ey...!

I added ammonia today to take it too ~4-5ppm, if i take the old filter media and take a third tomorrow and put it in my new filter should i add ammonia again tomorrow?

also as explained my filter is very complex (to me anyway) where should i put the adopted media? between the bio noodles and the bio sponge in the first chamber or second or between the bio sponge and the carbon/wool again first or second!

sorry if i am being silly just want to make sure i get it right!

Hi Fishman

Congrat on getting your own thread
Who was threatning you. That will teach you for hijacking kidding!

Firstly you can add the ammonia if you like but I suggest that you have a read of the pinned article on fishless cycling in the new to hobby secion of the forum most helpfull and will help you decide if you want to add ammonia of now. IMO I would wait until it hits 0 ammonia and then put in another 4ppm.

Secondly, No one ever told me this either, but you really do not need the carbon in the filter. You only need it if you want to remove colours, medications, smells and some other things form the water. It is quite expensive and is only effective for a short time. You would be better off replacing the carbon with some more filter noodles or the like to increase your filter capacity. Carbon does act a media but deticated filter media is alot more effective.

You can put media anywhere in the filter. Just as long as there is water passing over it it will do the job. Just make sure you always have something that can catch the big bits of crap to stop it going into the media e.g. white mesh.

CHEERS
Thommo

Thanks thommo much appreciated.

the carbon aspect of my filter is enclosed in a plastic type housing that the white woolen type stuff (im not sure what it is) is on the top of. Here is a link to a page selling spare ones http/www.aquarium-parts.co.uk/acatalog/A...620_Spares.html

can i deconstruct this and add bio noodles instead? will the carbon inhibit the cycle process as i have read somewhere about it taking away the ammonia before the bacteria have chance to "munch" through it?

thanks

Phil

 

[fishman3]

ok so update guys:

I have completed my first week of fishless cycling and all appears to be going well.

I added some adopted filter media from my coldwater tank to the new tank last wednesday and the ammonia levels have steadily decreased over the week as the nitrites and nitrates have increased.

This morning my ammonia levels were between 0 and .25 (still had a slight green tint to it but not a lot) so i added more ammonia to take it back to around 3/4 ppm. My nitrites are now at the top end of the scale if not of the chart. I have also had a steady rise in nitrates to around 20/30ppm from 0 last tuesday (day i first added the ammonia).

Will re-test tomorrow morning to confirm that the ammonia levels have dropped down again to almost 0 and add more in order to keep the bacteria generated alive! (i think this is correct having read rdd's post on the add and wait method).

My main questions now are do i continue to add ammonia daily (to take it upto approx 3/4ppm) in order to keep these bacteria fed? will this not give the nitrite bacteria a problem (overloading etc)? can i do gradual water changes now in order to keep the nitrates under control so i dont have to do a 50-60% change in a week or so?

thanks in advance guys and gals....

Phil

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Phil,

It appears that you got a tremendous boost from the mature media you moved over! Well worth the trouble of figuring that all out I'd say, especially since you got the hang of cutting up a piece of new sponge to replace the 1/3 you took out of the little one - this is the way to go about it!

In answer to your main question, YES, the main and most important aspect of Add&Wait Fishless Cycling is to just continue to add ammonia at the right times and to be patient. Despite all the other details we yak about, that's the core thing and can often get people by even without knowing the other stuff! That said, I'll try to help with details which I know you'll have a listen to.

The ammonia is only added once in any given 24 hour period and only if the previous ammonia dropped to zero at some point during that 24 hours. In other words, if you usually add in the morning but you see a zero reading in the evening, you still wait to the next morning to add ammonia. The bacteria won't starve, in fact their quite hardy in this respect.

Now the amount to add is somewhat flexible too, within a range. For simplicity, the RDD article just says 5ppm all the way through, but you're right, if you're willing to pay attention and do some fine tuning along the way then right now, with your "nitrite spike" coming on, its time to drop down to adding only 2 or 3ppm, so that not as many nitrites and nitrates will be formed. Each 1ppm of NH3 produces 2.7ppm of NO2 and then each 1ppm(I think, without looking) of NO2 produces 3.6ppm of NO3. So things start adding up quickly. After the "nitrite spike" period is over and nitrite(NO2) begins dropping in 24 hours and less, then its time to begin easing back up from 2ppm toward the 5ppm of ammonia adding that you want to end with. You always want to end by being able to clear the 5ppm amount of all traces of ammonia and nitrite in under 12 hours so that you know you have a very robust filter to start out with, because even with that, it will be fragile for the following couple of months.

I don't know what to advise about your idea of doing some partial water changes to keep NO2 down and avoid a large water change later. In general we usually advise leaving "the bacterial growing soup" alone as much as possible. The feedback we get from our tests can sometimes seem to say that the bacteria will "pause" a bit in their process when we do a water change, so that may represent a "slow-down" of the overall process for you. On the other hand, you are correct that a large water change often ends up getting recommended sometime in the "nitrite spike" stage because of an impending or realized pH crash (cycling stalls at pH 6.2, stops at 6.0 and the bacteria are in more and more serious trouble as it goes below that.) Now that you're heading into the second phase (after only a week it seems!) you should be doing pH tests along with the ammonia and nitrite ones in the morning and evening. Nitrate(NO3) can be left as an occasional test when you have more time. The NO2 and NO3 are acidic and will push the pH downward as they build up, and a sharp drop in pH will depend on how much buffering your water has (soft water has less, hard water has more).. but for now just post some occasional pH results and don't worry about the buffering stuff.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[fishman3]

Hi Phil,

It appears that you got a tremendous boost from the mature media you moved over! Well worth the trouble of figuring that all out I'd say, especially since you got the hang of cutting up a piece of new sponge to replace the 1/3 you took out of the little one - this is the way to go about it!

In answer to your main question, YES, the main and most important aspect of Add&Wait Fishless Cycling is to just continue to add ammonia at the right times and to be patient. Despite all the other details we yak about, that's the core thing and can often get people by even without knowing the other stuff! That said, I'll try to help with details which I know you'll have a listen to.

The ammonia is only added once in any given 24 hour period and only if the previous ammonia dropped to zero at some point during that 24 hours. In other words, if you usually add in the morning but you see a zero reading in the evening, you still wait to the next morning to add ammonia. The bacteria won't starve, in fact their quite hardy in this respect.

Now the amount to add is somewhat flexible too, within a range. For simplicity, the RDD article just says 5ppm all the way through, but you're right, if you're willing to pay attention and do some fine tuning along the way then right now, with your "nitrite spike" coming on, its time to drop down to adding only 2 or 3ppm, so that not as many nitrites and nitrates will be formed. Each 1ppm of NH3 produces 2.7ppm of NO2 and then each 1ppm(I think, without looking) of NO2 produces 3.6ppm of NO3. So things start adding up quickly. After the "nitrite spike" period is over and nitrite(NO2) begins dropping in 24 hours and less, then its time to begin easing back up from 2ppm toward the 5ppm of ammonia adding that you want to end with. You always want to end by being able to clear the 5ppm amount of all traces of ammonia and nitrite in under 12 hours so that you know you have a very robust filter to start out with, because even with that, it will be fragile for the following couple of months.

I don't know what to advise about your idea of doing some partial water changes to keep NO2 down and avoid a large water change later. In general we usually advise leaving "the bacterial growing soup" alone as much as possible. The feedback we get from our tests can sometimes seem to say that the bacteria will "pause" a bit in their process when we do a water change, so that may represent a "slow-down" of the overall process for you. On the other hand, you are correct that a large water change often ends up getting recommended sometime in the "nitrite spike" stage because of an impending or realized pH crash (cycling stalls at pH 6.2, stops at 6.0 and the bacteria are in more and more serious trouble as it goes below that.) Now that you're heading into the second phase (after only a week it seems!) you should be doing pH tests along with the ammonia and nitrite ones in the morning and evening. Nitrate(NO3) can be left as an occasional test when you have more time. The NO2 and NO3 are acidic and will push the pH downward as they build up, and a sharp drop in pH will depend on how much buffering your water has (soft water has less, hard water has more).. but for now just post some occasional pH results and don't worry about the buffering stuff.

~~waterdrop~~

thanks wd much appreciated i did a PH test this morning and it was 6.6 on low and 7.2 ish on high. Will definately keep an eye on this now thanks!!

just also noticed 6 or so little snails!!!!!!!! i posted a thread and got the response to use some meds or some veg matter and remove when the snails are attracted to it.

I captured all 6 of the little buggers that i could see but now i am left thinking that if i have an infestation which is likely as i believe these things breed quickly then i may have to use meds and wait even longer for fish...!

gutted....

Phil

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Don't panic over snails, the population will only grow if there's enough food in there for them to grow, so as long as you don't overfeed then you won't have an infestation, you'll get the odd one or two in there but not hundreds.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, I agree, don't worry about snails for now.

I'd worry more about that pH of 6.6 (you don't need to be using the high test kit, its meaningless unless the low kit reaches the highest number) as you may be getting very, very close to needing either a large water change to raise pH (what's the pH of your tap water?) or you may even have to consider using baking soda, but a large water change would be preferable unless your tap pH is as low or lower than your tank pH.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[fishman3]

Yes, I agree, don't worry about snails for now.

I'd worry more about that pH of 6.6 (you don't need to be using the high test kit, its meaningless unless the low kit reaches the highest number) as you may be getting very, very close to needing either a large water change to raise pH (what's the pH of your tap water?) or you may even have to consider using baking soda, but a large water change would be preferable unless your tap pH is as low or lower than your tank pH.

~~waterdrop~~

will test my tap water tonight but im not sure it is much higher than this? can i use the PH up solution from API?