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Nitrate Level

DaveA76

Fish Crazy
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louth lincs
been a while since i tested for anything as did regular water changes and my kit ran out, well got a new kit yesterday (api master test kit) just had a change in tank stocking so had to strip the tank down of all its furniture etc
the reslts last night and today are
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate is darker than 10 but lighter than 20
 
is this normal for the nitrates ? i cant remember 
whistling.gif
 
Nitrates are best kept at 0, but anything under 40 ppm is "safe". 
 
Wansui said:
Nitrates are best kept at 0, but anything under 40 ppm is "safe". 
how do i get them down ?
they are coming out the tap at 10,
the tank has gone from a heavy stocking of  cichlids had a complete strip down to a bare tank 24 hrs ago (but filters left full of tank water) full build up,  dechlorinated water and back running within 2 hours of stopping the filters and   lightly stocked with "community fish"
 
There should always be a nitrate reading. If you have live plants it is raised. There isn't any reason to drop it, so it should be good. :) 
 
 
If you have live plants it is raised.
 
That is backwards, Plants consume nitrate. So all other things being equal, a plantred tank has lower levels than an unplanted. Plus, in high tech planted tanks we often have to add nitrate.
 
DaveA76 said:
 
Nitrates are best kept at 0, but anything under 40 ppm is "safe". 
how do i get them down ?
they are coming out the tap at 10,
the tank has gone from a heavy stocking of  cichlids had a complete strip down to a bare tank 24 hrs ago (but filters left full of tank water) full build up,  dechlorinated water and back running within 2 hours of stopping the filters and   lightly stocked with "community fish"
 
Ideally the nitrate levels should be kept as close to 0 as possible, but 10 ppm isn't too bad. The only thing I can think of to lower nitrates in your situation is to have more live plants. Again, you should be fine with 10 ppm of nitrates and I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 
Drinking water is considered to be safe as long as has fewer than 44 ppm on an API kit. That is 10 mg/l NO3-N (i.e. using the nitrogen scale).
 
I believe that a fish-only tank should be kept at 20ppm or less. But planted tanks need more. My tanks used to run at 5ppm but that was no where near enough for the plants and I had algae problems. My understanding is that when a plant can't get enough nutrients it releases sugars? into the water and that's what promotes algae growth. (am sure I'll be corrected if that is wrong)
So am now having to add fertilisers to promote their growth and it's working. The fish are fine and the current result is about 80ppm (doing weekly water changes)
My plants have stopped melting and the floating salvinia is pearling.
So in answer to the OP it depends if you've got live plants. If not your fish should be fine with 10-20ppm nitrates.
 
As most members here know I like to search the research out there on a number of hobby related topics. This includes papers on ammonia and nitrite toxiicty as well as a number of other things. One of the hardest things to find is any decent information on nitrate and fish. Most of what is out there is not hugely helpful as it related to invert, insect and fish species which we never keep in tanks.
 
What one typically finds is something like this publish in May 2006:
 


Abstract
Water quality criteria for aquaculture systems have typically considered parameters such as temperature, dissolved oxygen, total gas pressure, ammonia, and nitrite. Many of the published criteria are derived for environmental protection of a wide range of species and life stages. These criteria may not be appropriate for a single species and life stage, especially in commercial applications. The value of a given water quality criterion may depend strongly on the species, size, and culture objectives. In water reuse systems, fine solids, refractory organics, surface-active compounds, metals, and nitrate may become important. The limiting factors in very high intensity reuse systems are not entirely understood at this time. Development of more relevant water quality criteria for reuse systems will require production-scale trials. Separate water quality criteria for biofilter operation are also needed.
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014486090500124X
 
Bear in mind that you need to convert NO3 mg/l-nitrogen to the scale used on hobby tests like the API kit you must multiply the nitrogen number by 4.4. So the above
 
Now, if one wants to know how nitrate affects trout or salmon or daphnia in the wild, we can find that. But these species are generally known to be more sensitive to the nitrogen compounds than fish in general. So it doesn't help us much. There is some research into a few species we find in such as guppies. The one thing I do find is the belief that if you start with data for LC50 (i.e the level that kills 50% of the fish within X hours) that concentrations at 10% of that level are considered to be safe.
 
So look at this research into guppy fry which showed:

nitrate3.jpg
from http://yaphankcivic.org/uploads/Nitrate_Toxicity_to_Aquatic_Animals.pdf
 
This means that, at the lowest value above of 191 mg/l-n which kills 1/2 the fish in 96 hours, 10% of this is 9.1 mg/l-n and would read 76.4 ppm on an API kit (assuming you got an accurate test result). That level is then considered safe and is a far cry from 10 or 20 ppm being harmful.
 
What is known about nitrate toxicity is that it is both species and life stage specific and does relate to other water parameters.
 
What I wonder is when people post that nitrate levels on our test kits need to be under a given level, on what is this opinion being based? Where is the data to support such statements? While I am willing to agree that lower levels of nitrate are safer than higher ones, I am not prepared to draw a red line which states any and all fish in our tanks must have less than 20, 40 or even higher on our hobby kits. Nitrate takes time to accumulate which means if one does weekly or more frequent water changes in a fw tank that the amount of time nitrate is at its highest level is not the whole week but is there at the end of the week.
 
Nor do I understand why 80 ppm would be OK for planted tanks but not for unplanted? This ignores any time factor. The day you dose nitrate is the day it is at maximum level. You add all 80 ppm. How long is it going to take the plants to reduce the nitrate level to 20 ppm or less. And until nitrate in that planted tank is actually reduced to 20 ppm, why isn't it harming fish? For a few days nitrate levels must be over 20 ppm. And either this is harmful or it is not, the plants change nothing in that respect.
 
 
 
So, hands-up all those for whom the above went completely over their head?
 
What TTA is trying to say, in his overly-complicated style, is that there are no real set limits to nitrate, and until it gets seriously high, don't worry overly. (That's if I understood him right.......)
 
the_lock_man said:
So, hands-up all those for whom the above went completely over their head?
 
What TTA is trying to say, in his overly-complicated style, is that there are no real set limits to nitrate, and until it gets seriously high, don't worry overly. (That's if I understood him right.......)
 
Raise-Hand-Smiley-pic.jpg
 
I was just going to say that, basically, the OP is doing well with his Nitrate level where it is!
 
Mamashack said:
My understanding is that when a plant can't get enough nutrients it releases sugars? into the water and that's what promotes algae growth. (am sure I'll be corrected if that is wrong)
I've never heard that before. Any chance of a link to where you read it?
As far as I know, the relationship between plants and algae is not very well understood and probably too complex to explain in simple terms. If there is indeed a simple explanation like plants releasing sugars then that would be cool to know! The limit of my current understanding is that algae are opportunistic, like parasites, taking advantage of plants when they are not healthy.
 
Plants certainly make carbohydrates like glucose and then starch and cellulose so I suppose it could follow that if a plant breaks down through lack of nutrients some of those carbohydrates could be 'released' back to the aquarium...interesting idea, maybe TTA will be able to say?
 
It's probably true that decaying plants release some amount of sugars, though I would imagine that they release a lot more phosphates and hormones that tell other plants they're dying. Like apples release hormones into the air that tell the other nearby apples to start rotting/ripening.
 
As far as algea goes, that's probably the reverse order of thinking. The algea causes the plants to die. The algea came from either lighting or fertilizers, which didn't help the plants either. I don't believe that algea feeds on sugars, most use photosynthesis to produce sugars just like the plants do. In fact, a certain type of algea is thought to be one of the first cells to have chloroplasts (which do photosynthesis).
 

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