Newbie To Saltwater

[n3ont3tra]

I can imagine topics like this are common here...

Okay, I was thinking of setting up a slatwater tank, and the only thing I know is bigger is better, lol. The best size option for me is 30gallons, so I'll be working with that. What sort of heating or filtration would I use? I want corals, what are good beginner kinds? Are anemonees easy to care for? What sort of protective clothing would I wear when handling it?

Now for fish...

I really like clownfish, and that one purple and gold fish, I think it was called the 'royal gramma'. I also really like that shrimp that has really long feelers, it's red and white. I like crabs, too, and snails. Oh, and starfish. I pretty mcuh like all invertebrates. What about tangs? Would they get too big? Angelfish?

I know I have a lot of questions, but I'm really interested. By the way, I've had lots of experience with freshwater tanks.

 

[SkiFletch]

First off, to the salty side of life, check your wallet and your kidneys at the door

A 30gallon tank is technically a "nano" tank (any tank 30g and below is termed a nano) albeit the largest one . 30g is a pretty good starter size. Since you're coming from the freshwater world, step one is to throw out all your knowledge of filtration. The only thing you should retain from your freshwater knowledge is how the nitrogen cycle works (ie bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate), everything else is not applicable in the saltwater world. Instead of using fancy filters, media, and other man-made gadgets, we let mother nature do our filtration for us. We use Live Rock (LR) to process the nitrogen cycle and sometimes protein skimmers to remove dissolved organic waste coupled with water changes. The main reason we use LR is because it contains not only the bacteria to process the nitrogen cycle to the point of nitrate, but also photosynthetic algaes and anaerobic bacteria which process and remove nitrate. Because the kidneys of saltwater fish and other invertebrates function differently, nitrate becomes much more dangerous to the longterm health of your tank. Therefore, we need a good method of removing nitrate from the system, and the best method there is starts with LR

The rule of thumb is 1lb of LR per gallon of water. Then we stick a powerhead or two into the tank to push enough water around to turnover the tank volume 20 times per hour. So for a 30g tank you'd need 600gph worth of powerhead flowrate. This turnover helps the LR function as a filter and helps keep the water oxygenated which is much harder to do when O2 has to compete with all the other ions in saltwater for space . Heating is accomplished in the same method, just a submersible heater. You dont have to spend a billion dollars on a heater for saltwater, but just dont skimp too mch. Saltwater is much more corrosive and will wear out a real cheapo heater quick.

To answer some of your more pointed questions, Anemones are NOT for beginners. They are very touchy creatures, requiring high light, impeccable water quality, and some very advanced concepts for beginners. They also tend to do better in tanks larger than 30g. You CAN make one work in a tank that small, but I wouldnt even consider it till I had 6+ months of saltwater experience under my belt. No Tang alive belongs in a 30g tank, sorry . Tangs are open water swimmers and will lack the space they need in a 30g. You can fit some Tangs in 4' long 75g tanks, but they are generally reserved for 5-6'+ tanks. Full size angelfish also get too big and need similar space to tangs. Dwarf or pygmy angelfish however can fit in a 30g. However, buyer be ware, around 10-20% of individual dwarf angels will nip at corals, which stinks cause they're gorgeous fish. Good beginner corals are softies, xenia, sacrophyton (leather), mushrooms, zooanthids/palythoas, and some others. Some LPS are pretty easy too like hammers, torch, frogspawn, bubble, galaxea, and brain corals. As for starfish, really only a dwarf brittle star belongs in a tank that small. Most other starfish will starve to death with such a small sand bed. The shrimp that has really long feelers is probably either a skunk cleaner or a blood shrimp . Clownfish are great for beginners, but beware royal grammas, they can be a little aggressive in a small tank like yours. If added last to allow other less aggressive fish to establish territories first it might work, but you'd have to avoid any other slender purple or yellow fish as he will attack similar body and color morphs.

Some great first questions. I'd reccomend you go and have a read through the stickies atop this section as there is a lot of knowledge in there. Good luck and enjoy your stay

 

[Mr Miagi]

What sort of heating or filtration would I use?

Same heating as with FW. Flitration is accomplished by liverock.

I want corals, what are good beginner kinds?

Mushrooms, Leathers, and Zoanthids, all go alright in the right water params and lighting.

Are anemonees easy to care for? What sort of protective clothing would I wear when handling it?

Chac made a good guide. Anemones need mature tanks, and arnt for beginners. Anemone Faq Topic

I really like clownfish, and that one purple and gold fish, I think it was called the 'royal gramma'.

They should be fine in a 30g, plus a few others!

I also really like that shrimp that has really long feelers, it's red and white.

CBS = Coral Banded Shrimp. Somewhat agressive, and can tarmple coral, but give them an overhang and they should keep to themselves.

I like crabs, too, and snails.

They can all be bought as cleanup crew, and can hitchike on your LR.

Oh, and starfish.

Starfish are generally considered no-no's, simply because there isnt enough food for them in smaller tanks.

What about tangs? Would they get too big?

No tangs, not enough swimming room.

Angelfish?

A Dwarf Angel would be alright.

 

[n3ont3tra]

I have a few more questions now

Starfish are generally considered no-no's, simply because there isnt enough food for them in smaller tanks.

What do starfish eat?

Also, what does it mean to 'cure' live rock? What about live sand? What does that do?

Does live rock move? I really don't know...



I was looking at liveaquaria.com and I noticed they have different kinds of live rock for sale. Do different kinds work better, or is it just appearance?

I was looking at the different corals there, too, and a few caught my interest. Could somebody tell me if they are easy to care for and if there's anything I should know about these kinds?

Starburst Polyp (Briareum sp.)
Colony Polyp, Super Colored(Zoanthus sp.)
Pipe Organ Coral(Tubipora musica)
Red Sea Fan(Gorgonia sp.)
Purple Brush Gorgonian(Muriceopsis flavida)
Christmas Tree Coral(Sphaerella spp.)
Sea Pen(Cavernularia obesa)
Ricordea Mushroom, Blue/Green (Caribbean)(Ricordea florida)
Green Fluorescent Mushroom(Actinodiscus sp.)
Tube Coral - Black(Tubastrea micrantha)
Acropora Coral, Purple(Acropora sp.)
Sarcophyton Long Polyp Leather Coral - Aquacultured(Sarcophyton sp.)

I copied and pasted the names of the corals from the site, so I hope they are right.

When you put a coral in the tank, do you put it on a piece of live rock? Do you have to wear protecrive clothing when handling corals?

I looked up more fish, and I also was interested in damselfish as well, especially the Green Chromis and the Blue Chromis. I was wondering if there were any smaller fish that would school that I would be able to put in the 30g?
I completely forgot about this in the last post -- seahorses. Would they be too difficult for a beginner like moi?
The half black Angelfish looked nice, too.
Here are some other fish too:
Blue Ribbon Eel
Pipefish
hawkfish
Coral Shrimpfish
Pajama Cardinalfish

And crustaceans:
Horseshoe Crabs (these are actually endangered where I live)
Lissocarcinus Laevis (unsure of common names, it's some tiype of crab, it's red, white, and yellow)
Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp
Coral Banded Shrimp (the shrimp I mentioned before)

Mollusks and Annelids
Flame Scallop
Featherduster Worm


And I found a starfish that, according to a book of mine, only grows to 3-1/4 inches. It's called Fromia Elegans (Little Red Starfish). Would that be okay?

I am going to search the forums for a lot of these fish, but if anybody wants to share something, that would be nice.

 

[three-fingers]

Horseshoe Crabs (these are actually endangered where I live)

Ooooh, i really want one of those(or two).
Horseshoe crabs and mantis shrimp are the two main things making me want to set up a marine tank, but unfortunately i defiantly don't have the space or money for it .
Still, i pop into this forum every now and then, its good to know these things for future reference . Sometime in the near future i will be in a bigger room and hopefully relatively soon i will also maybe have my own place. By that time i will have more money, and plenty of space so nothing can stop me 8) .
This topic is helping me alot .

 

[Lynden]

I have little experience with corals, so this is mostly from research.

An (?) indicates that my knowledge is either incomplete, or that I am unconfident of it's correctness. Don't trust me on those ones

Starburst Polyp (Briareum sp.) = easy (?)
Colony Polyp, Super Colored(Zoanthus sp.) = These are easy, could practically resist a nuclear attack.
Pipe Organ Coral(Tubipora musica) = moderate (?)
Red Sea Fan(Gorgonia sp.) = difficult because they lack symbionts, and require feedings at regular intervals.
Purple Brush Gorgonian(Muriceopsis flavida) = difficult (?) as above.
Christmas Tree Coral(Sphaerella spp.) = difficult (?)
Sea Pen(Cavernularia obesa) = moderate. They have symbionts, but still need regular feedings. (?)
Ricordea Mushroom, Blue/Green (Caribbean)(Ricordea florida) = beautiful and easy to keep. Could practically resist nuclear attacks.
Green Fluorescent Mushroom(Actinodiscus sp.) = easy, as for Ricordea.
Tube Coral - Black(Tubastrea micrantha) = moderately difficult to keep because they require daily feedings.
Acropora Coral, Purple(Acropora sp.) = difficult. requires high lighting, pristine water, and plenty of minerals. Try to buy captive raised fragments.
Sarcophyton Long Polyp Leather Coral - Aquacultured(Sarcophyton sp.) = Easy.

When you put a coral in the tank, do you put it on a piece of live rock? Do you have to wear protecrive clothing when handling corals?

1) You can put it on anything calcaerous. (spelling?) Cement plugs work nicely.

2) No, but it is definetly recommended.

I looked up more fish, and I also was interested in damselfish as well, especially the Green Chromis and the Blue Chromis. I was wondering if there were any smaller fish that would school that I would be able to put in the 30g?

Short answer, no. The vast majority of schooling fish need a larger tank. You could very likely accommodate a shoal of Chromis, though.

I completely forgot about this in the last post -- seahorses. Would they be too difficult for a beginner like moi?

Short answer, yes. However, captive raised fishes are much easier to maintain than wild-caught fishes.

The half black Angelfish = easy, but may nip corals and clam mantles.
Blue Ribbon Eel = expert only. They are usually reluctant to feed, and when they do, it seems unable to sustain them, and they waste away and die. Better off left in the sea.
Pipefish = difficult, like Seahorses.
hawkfish = easy. The larger species may be a threat to shrimps.
Coral Shrimpfish = difficult, needs live foods. (??)
Pajama Cardinalfish = easy.

And crustaceans:
Horseshoe Crabs = moderate, but needs a mature tank and a vast amount of space.
Lissocarcinus Laevis = easy, but should have a Hell's Fire Anemone (infer it's power from it's name) or a Tube Anemone to live in, (?) both of which are difficult to keep. Both of them would make incredibly interesting aquarium inhabitants; the Hell's Fire possesses astounding mimicry abilities.
Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp = easy.
Coral Banded Shrimp (the shrimp I mentioned before) = easy, but can become territorial, and it's strong claws mean it needs respect.

Mollusks and Annelids
Flame Scallop = difficult. Requires pristine water conditions and regular feedings.
Featherduster Worm = easy. requires occasion feedings to stay healthy.

And I found a starfish that, according to a book of mine, only grows to 3-1/4 inches. It's called Fromia Elegans (Little Red Starfish). Would that be okay?

They are moderately easy to keep, but should have feeding supplements of seafood flesh (?) and algae.

-Lynden

 

[n3ont3tra]

Thanks a lot, that post was very informative.

Thought of another question, lol.
What does calcaerous mean? Something... holey?
And How much space should I have between corals?

 

[Lynden]

Thanks a lot, that post was very informative.

Thought of another question, lol.
What does calcaerous mean? Something... holey?
And How much space should I have between corals?

1) Calcaerous is an adjective reffering to a material or - in some cases, a life form - that emits or absorbs calcium.

2) Depends heavily on the species. Some, such as Cladiella, Galaxea or Euphylla, will not hesitate to kill any coral the find. Others are more lenient, such as Acropora, Xenia, and Dendronepthea, and will live in harmony other weak stinging corals.

-Lynden

 

[Mr Miagi]

What do starfish eat?

Starfish eat a variety of different things, each different per species. "Most" stafish are difficult to keep, becasue of their diets, I wouldnt even try with my two 30gls . Only attempt a stafish once your system is very mature, the sand bed is "seeded" (explained further down) and you know what starfish youve bought, and its individual requirements.

Also, what does it mean to 'cure' live rock?

To cure, or Curing is a process where you allow unwell and stuggling organisms to die off (die from shipping mainly), efficiently cycling your tank. This leaves you with fully cured live rock, where no dying or decaying matter will pollute your tank. You then have fully cured live rock, and your ready to slowly start stocking.

What about live sand? What does that do?


You can use live sand. Its costly, but can be beneficial. It does the same job as your LR (live rock). Many choose to buy plain sand, and let life "seed" the sand bed over time, saving some money in the start up process.


Does live rock move?

Nope, it wont move if you place it well. Live Rock isnt live, its calcium carbonate structure formed by what once was coral. The "Live" part of live rock is creatures, sponges, crustaceans, micro algae, macro algae, inverts, etc etc which take refuge and live on/in the calcium carbonate rock.


I was looking at liveaquaria.com and I noticed they have different kinds of live rock for sale. Do different kinds work better, or is it just appearance?

Your right, its only appearance, personal preferance, and the forms of life associated in each geogarphical area.


Starburst Polyp (Briareum sp.)
Colony Polyp, Super Colored(Zoanthus sp.)
Ricordea Mushroom, Blue/Green (Caribbean)(Ricordea florida)
Green Fluorescent Mushroom(Actinodiscus sp.)
Sarcophyton Long Polyp Leather Coral - Aquacultured(Sarcophyton sp.)
Sea Pen(Cavernularia obesa)


These should all be fine, great begineer corals.


Pipe Organ Coral(Tubipora musica)

Pipe Organs have a bad reputation in tanks, and need pretty good, consistent water quality. Youll have troble finding one in good health to start with IME, and your better off excluding it from your stocking plans whilst your tank is young, and whilst you get to terms with husbandry.


Red Sea Fan(Gorgonia sp.)
Purple Brush Gorgonian(Muriceopsis flavida)
Christmas Tree Coral(Sphaerella spp.)

Your Gorgonians are tough to feed, and youll need to add supplements, which can have a high bioload on new tanks, which as you could gather, isnt the best thing. You can go for photosynthetic gorgonians, but in new tanks, where algae can be an issue, you will have trouble keeping algae off the gorgonian, and they will die.


Tube Coral - Black(Tubastrea micrantha)

They need regular feeding. Im way too lazy, but if your dedicated to give these guys (each individual polyp by the way, not just a few) 3 - 4 times a week with frozen meaty (then thawed) foods from a turkey baster, by all means go for it, but stay away if you know your not going to be bothered, like me!


Acropora Coral, Purple(Acropora sp.)

Only if your really dedicated to good water quality, have good flow, T5 or better lighting, and are very patient. They grow very slowly, and need constant stable water params. Basically a coral for someone whos been in the game a bit longer, and wants to do something more challenging, they are a step up really.


When you put a coral in the tank, do you put it on a piece of live rock? Do you have to wear protecrive clothing when handling corals?

Its always beneficial and recomended to wear some plastic gloves, just the kind you might wear when cleaning the dishes, or medical gloves that come in a cheap 100 pack or something. Its just so you dont get bitten, stabbed, or get anything remotely harmful in any open wounds.

When placing coral, you have to take into account that corals individual requirements. So you wont know until you get your setup going, know what you can put in there with your lighting and circulation. Other than that, yes, most coral can be placed into, on, around, through or ontop of live rock. Some corals also need to be placed on the sand bed.



I looked up more fish, and I also was interested in damselfish as well, especially the Green Chromis and the Blue Chromis. I was wondering if there were any smaller fish that would school that I would be able to put in the 30g?

Your damsels will school, and they are really cool IMO. I cant think of any other suitable shcooling fish for a 30g, maybe a small family of Cardinal fish, including the Pajama Cardinal (spotted cardinal on Live Aquaria), and P. kauderni (Kauderni's Cardinal). They are slow swimmers though, and tend to "float" in the water, and arnt very active.

I completely forgot about this in the last post -- seahorses. Would they be too difficult for a beginner like moi?

You need a taller tank for seahorses, you wont be able to have many boistrous fish like the damsels, and youll need a dedicated refugium or planted macroalgae in your display to help boost the population of amphipods/copepods for their natural diet. They are for people who really want to learn, and know what they are doing before they get started.Begineers can succeed, but you need knowledge of husbandry, general requirements, and food production etc etc.


The half black Angelfish looked nice, too.

The only half black Angel I can see is a FW one, lol.

Are you reading the information provided at the LiveAquaria site? I dont think you are.

Coral Shrimpfish -- Expert ONLY
Pipefish -- Expert ONLY
Blue Ribbon Eel -- No, even experts cant keep these alive, a highly specialised diet, constant feeding. Their diet seems to be their downfall.
Hawkfish -- Fine, BUT, it will eat your shrimp if its too small, or your Hawkfish is large. They naturally prey on crustaceans, so youll have to choose.


Horseshoe Crabs (these are actually endangered where I live)

They are ok, they will prey on your population of sand inverts though. They will also disturb your sand and LR, so watch for rock falls.


Scarlet Cleaner Shrimp
Coral Banded Shrimp (the shrimp I mentioned before)

Both fine, I did talk and explain the CBS in my previous post.


Flame Scallop
Featherduster Worm

Leave the Flame Scallop in the ocean, not many can keep these alive. Feather dusters are fine though, might need direct feeding, but if your up to it, go for it.


And I found a starfish that, according to a book of mine, only grows to 3-1/4 inches. It's called Fromia Elegans (Little Red Starfish). Would that be okay?

As said before, they wont survive longterm in your tank. A 30g is too small. I was given one, and it didnt do well, and my LR was established for years, and I had a sand bed that was also 2 years old. Just because of their size, doesnt mean you can support their diet for long term survival.



I am going to search the forums for a lot of these fish, but if anybody wants to share something, that would be nice.


I recomend you buy a few books, rather than ask 1000 questions, theres only a certain point to which I want to continue Quoting and answering questions, LOL!

Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner.
ReefKeppping Magazine PAst Issues are terrific reads... http/reefkeeping.com/issues/past.php
And TFF's Realm of Knowledge of Book reviews by members here should help you.

Ok, sorry, my QUOTE doesnt seem to work!

 

[n3ont3tra]

Thanks for the info, it was really informative, and you're right, I wasn't reading... not all of them at least. A few I skipped because I read them but I guess I missed a few.

I am asking for a book for Christmas so maybe I'll get it, if not I'll spend my own money and get it . I'll post if I need to, I really am trying not to ask too many questions, lol.

That angelfish, I know there's a freshwater angelfish called the half-black angelfihs, and there seems to be a saltwater one as well. I'm looking off a book for this info, the scientific name is centropyge vrolikii. According to the book, it grows to 4-3/4 inches. It's in the saltwater section and it says it's "not harmful to invertebrates"

Bedtime, talk again soon (most likely),
Leah

 

[Mr.September15]

Thanks for the info, it was really informative, and you're right, I wasn't reading... not all of them at least. A few I skipped because I read them but I guess I missed a few.

I am asking for a book for Christmas so maybe I'll get it, if not I'll spend my own money and get it . I'll post if I need to, I really am trying not to ask too many questions, lol.

That angelfish, I know there's a freshwater angelfish called the half-black angelfihs, and there seems to be a saltwater one as well. I'm looking off a book for this info, the scientific name is centropyge vrolikii. According to the book, it grows to 4-3/4 inches. It's in the saltwater section and it says it's "not harmful to invertebrates"

Bedtime, talk again soon (most likely),
Leah

Mr.Miagi and Ski know some good books since they actually read. . And Lynden is a flippin' walking encyclopedia. I don't see any questions in this post so i'm just going to be random. I'm listening to this song it's pretty good, I like the first part but the bass part isn't so great

 

[Lynden]

And Lynden is a flippin' walking encyclopedia

Thank you I'm not an animal freak; really!

I have an angel that is very closely related to the Half Black. Very docile, and cute. Feeds well (I have also had a Herald's angel that did not accept flake), but is disease prone - she has recovered from two different diseases - so a UV sterilizer and a supply of medicines or "cleaner" symbionts is recommended.

I'm glad that we could be of help. Keep up the questions; otherwise I might start to reread my research on Porcupine Puffers for the billionth time.

-Lynden

 

[Ranger]

I don't see any questions in this post so i'm just going to be random. I'm listening to this song it's pretty good, I like the first part but the bass part isn't so great

I just watched Superman 1 and Waterworld while playing the piano.

 

[SkiFletch]

Any Centropyge genus fish is known as a pygmy or dwarf angel. As mentioned, they're easy to keep and won't attack invertebrates. Some individuals will nip corals though, so they're a slight risk in a reef tank.

Edit: Pick up a copy of "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner first. And then if you want to look into coras, pick up anything by Eric Borneman

 

[n3ont3tra]

I just put those books on my Xmas list, thanks!

Another question:

How would I cure live rock? Somebody explained what it meant to cure it, but how would I do it?