New to tropical fish - seeking some advice

[jonnyc88]

Ok I need some input regarding the filter.
This is the one that came with the tank (850 version) : https://www.aquaone.co.uk/focus.php...b_type=Ocellaris Pressurised Canister Filters

Whilst it's ok the water is still a bit cloudy after 5 hours.

I'm thinking of getting Fluval 407 which probably requires some modification as the corner holes in my tank are quite small.
Should I persevere with current filter?

 

[Byron]

First thing, cloudy water here probably has nothing to do with the filter. Bacterial blooms are usual in new tanks, and they will last from a few hours to a few days or a few weeks, depending upon the system. These bacteria feed on organics, and while one would naturally wonder how there could be high organics in a new tank with no fish, the organics can be astronomically high in tap water. And the species of bacteria that feed on organics can reproduce rapidly, within 20-30 minutes, compared to the 30-ish hours for nitrifying bacteria.

If the cloudiness is sediment from the substrate, the filter might help remove this faster. Microscopic suspended particulate matter can also be in the tap water, generally you can see this in a clear glass of water hold to the light. Filters will deal with any of these issues.

The linked canister filters are probably as good as any other, I've no experience with this brand. The current produced by the filter is the real important factor, as this directly impacts fish (some need strong currents, some need no current, some are OK somewhere in between).

 

[seangee]

The Ocellaris is a decent filter. I have one now. I have had a 406 in the past. Can't say I would go out and spend money to replace a perfectly good one.

 

[jonnyc88]

Many thanks @Byron and @seangee for the reply.
The Ocellaris has quite a decent filter system so I was hoping it would do the job. The media layout in the basket is as screenshot below.
In terms of flow it's pretty good, I used the spraybar instead of duck bill and across 2 sections of 8 holes the output is quite strong.
I'm not sure if the cloudiness is from the substrate or tap water but I'm leaning towards the substrate. I held a pint glass of tap water and it's definitely not as cloudy as the tank is.

Water is still cloudy today, would it go start clearing once the plants start to grow? I'm bit wary of introducing any fish whilst it's cloudy...
I really don't want to spend unnecessary money if possible but there is a friend on social media recommending that I definitely should get the Fluval 407 filter.

Does your tank have cloudiness during the first fill? If so how long does it last usually?
With the LED light on you can notice the white cloudy water in my tank still I would say even slightly cloudier than yesterday?

EDIT: Ok, I have been doing some more reading as I'm bit worried and prety much what @Byron said it spot on. We've rinsed the substrate before filling into the tank so I don't think draining and filling the tank again would really help much here.
Just a bit unsure as the cloudiness was almost instant after filling.
So this leads us to the second cause which is bacterial blossom due to nitrogen cycling process. We will test the water over period of few days to confirm this. It looks like without fish and only live plants this should take about 2-3 days to settle.
Got a Fluval water clarifier to see if it helps : https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00I5PNHLG/?tag=

 

[seangee]

I started a new tank about 3 weeks ago. It's pretty clear now but initially looked very much like yours.

 

[jonnyc88]

Just tested the water and as expected no Nitrite or Nitrates.
It's a on the alkaline side with 7.8pH.
Ammonia aboiut 0.15ppm
gH is 160ppm/8dH
kH is 100ppm/5dH

 

[jonnyc88]

I started a new tank about 3 weeks ago. It's pretty clear now but initially looked very much like yours.

Thanks @seangee for the reassurance. As we are using the same filter hopefully mine will clear up soon too.

As above we've tested the water parameters and the only concern is the pH.
Did you stock the fish after the water is clear?

 

[Byron]

Thanks @seangee for the reassurance. As we are using the same filter hopefully mine will clear up soon too.

As above we've tested the water parameters and the only concern is the pH.
Did you stock the fish after the water is clear?

Why is the pH "a concern"? Has it suddenly shifted?

Got a Fluval water clarifier to see if it helps : https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00I5PNHLG/?tag=

Never use these with fish in the tank. So if you do use it now, you should do extensive water changes before any fish are added. These products tend to work by stickig together the microscopic particulate matter (including bacteria) so the filter can easily screen them out. Unfortunately the clarifiers also do this to the fish's gills.

Bacterial blooms will sort themselves out, it takes time. Every tank is a unique biological system. I have seen these blooms dissipate in a day or two, and in another tank it took a few weeks. An aquarium is a natural ecosystem and the laws of nature occur, it is best to work with them and not against them with chemicals.

 

[jonnyc88]

Why is the pH "a concern"? Has it suddenly shifted?

Nope, this is the first test. Thought it's a bit on the alkaline side?

Never use these with fish in the tank. So if you do use it now, you should do extensive water changes before any fish are added. These products tend to work by stickig together the microscopic particulate matter (including bacteria) so the filter can easily screen them out. Unfortunately the clarifiers also do this to the fish's gills.

This brand is marketed to be friendly for fish but of course we won't use this with fish in the tank.
We also have the Fluval Water Conditioner for when the fish arrives.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00G25IA6S/?tag=

Bacterial blooms will sort themselves out, it takes time. Every tank is a unique biological system. I have seen these blooms dissipate in a day or two, and in another tank it took a few weeks. An aquarium is a natural ecosystem and the laws of nature occur, it is best to work with them and not against them with chemicals.

Understood. I was trying to get my mind around bacterial bloom on a brand new tank, I thought there won't be any or very little bacteria in it which would make it cloudy.

 

[seangee]

Thanks @seangee for the reassurance. As we are using the same filter hopefully mine will clear up soon too.

As above we've tested the water parameters and the only concern is the pH.
Did you stock the fish after the water is clear?

This tank has a cheap internal filter. I put fish in long before it cleared

 

[Byron]

Understood. I was trying to get my mind around bacterial bloom on a brand new tank, I thought there won't be any or very little bacteria in it which would make it cloudy.

One would think so, but the reality is very different. Tap water can have a considerable level of dissolved organics in it. When added to a new tank, and especially if dechlorinator is used, the "waste eating" bacteria species which feed on any and all organics will appear and rapidly reproduce to eat the dissolved organics.

This brand is marketed to be friendly for fish but of course we won't use this with fish in the tank.
We also have the Fluval Water Conditioner for when the fish arrives.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00G25IA6S/?tag=

Two things here. First, you can never assume "safe" or similar words actually mean no detriment to fish. Long-term use of most products, or if used in excess, usually does impact fish in some way, either by causing stress, interfering with their physiology, or coating them with substances that are not at all "safe." Which brings me to the conditioner. On their site it says:

• Herbal extracts reduce fish stress caused from transportation, handling and acclimatization
• Coats delicate scales and fins to protect against minor abrasions

This immediately puts me on guard. What herbal extracts, exactly? They don't say...other manufacturers use various things like aloe vera, one uses a barbituate (can't remember which now), all of which are problematic long-term. And "coats delicate scales," what exactly does this mean? Does not sound good.

My recommended conditioner is API's Tap Water Conditioner; it deals with chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals, nothing else, and it is the most highly concentrated conditioner so you use less of it and that is always beneficial for fish.

Nope, this is the first test. Thought it's a bit on the alkaline side?

The pH is part of a complex chemistry involveing the GH, KH and dissolved CO2. The pH of the source water will tend to remain the same in an aquarium if the GH and KH are sufficient to "buffer" it, and then depending upon the organic level. Decomposition of organic matter which occurs primarily in the substrate once fish are present produces CO2 which produces carbonic acid. The pH will tend to lower, again subject to the buffering capability/capacity determined by the GH and KH. None of this is a problem provided there are regular (once weekly) substantial (50-70% of the tank volume) water changes. Also, keeping the biological system balanced (fish load, feeding, plants) helps stabilize things.

 

[jonnyc88]

This tank has a cheap internal filter. I put fish in long before it cleared

I suppose I just need some patience. Just jealous looking at all those pictures of crystal clear water tanks

 

[jonnyc88]

One would think so, but the reality is very different. Tap water can have a considerable level of dissolved organics in it. When added to a new tank, and especially if dechlorinator is used, the "waste eating" bacteria species which feed on any and all organics will appear and rapidly reproduce to eat the dissolved organics.

Gotcha. I didn't use any dechlorinator so far so hopefully the Fluval Quick Clear aquarium Water Clarifier tomorrow helps.
According to the product details it's safe for plants and fish, of course there won't be fish in my tank now. There are reports from those who managed to clear their cloudy tank in 2-3 days with a few treatments hence my interest.
You've advised changing the water after adding purifier, wouldn't that make the water cloudy again?

Two things here. First, you can never assume "safe" or similar words actually mean no detriment to fish. Long-term use of most products, or if used in excess, usually does impact fish in some way, either by causing stress, interfering with their physiology, or coating them with substances that are not at all "safe." Which brings me to the conditioner. On their site it says:

• Herbal extracts reduce fish stress caused from transportation, handling and acclimatization
• Coats delicate scales and fins to protect against minor abrasions

This immediately puts me on guard. What herbal extracts, exactly? They don't say...other manufacturers use various things like aloe vera, one uses a barbituate (can't remember which now), all of which are problematic long-term. And "coats delicate scales," what exactly does this mean? Does not sound good.

My recommended conditioner is API's Tap Water Conditioner; it deals with chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals, nothing else, and it is the most highly concentrated conditioner so you use less of it and that is always beneficial for fish.

I suppose I should've held my horses before purchasing the Fluval conditioner. Looking at the reviews it seems that most people are happy using it though. Perhaps I'll start with a lower dosage.
I'd do a more digging to find out more about the Fluval Aquaplus Aquarium Water Conditioner before committing to adding them with live fish.

The pH is part of a complex chemistry involveing the GH, KH and dissolved CO2. The pH of the source water will tend to remain the same in an aquarium if the GH and KH are sufficient to "buffer" it, and then depending upon the organic level. Decomposition of organic matter which occurs primarily in the substrate once fish are present produces CO2 which produces carbonic acid. The pH will tend to lower, again subject to the buffering capability/capacity determined by the GH and KH. None of this is a problem provided there are regular (once weekly) substantial (50-70% of the tank volume) water changes. Also, keeping the biological system balanced (fish load, feeding, plants) helps stabilize things.

Thanks. I'm starting to learn about this from the testing kits we have. It's indeed a fine balance but hopefully it will get better once we have some live fish, as you've mentioned.
I didn't realise it's recommended to change 70% of the tank volume once a week. I was thinking along the lines of 50% bi-weekly once everything settles.
Wouldn't changing that much volume harm the ecosystem of an established tank?

 

[Byron]

I didn't use any dechlorinator so far so hopefully the Fluval Quick Clear aquarium Water Clarifier tomorrow helps.
According to the product details it's safe for plants and fish, of course there won't be fish in my tank now. There are reports from those who managed to clear their cloudy tank in 2-3 days with a few treatments hence my interest.
You've advised changing the water after adding purifier, wouldn't that make the water cloudy again?

I want to ensure you understand this, so this is not merely arguing over using the "clarifier," but my intention is to explain the detriment of these so you and others understand the risk you are taking (again, this is with fish in the tank; before, fine but make sure substantial water changes get all of this chemical out before any fish go in). Fish will be severely stressed as it is, they do not need something like this clogging up their works.

And these products are not "safe" if by safe one means will cause no harm whatsoever to fish. I have used API's clarifier (forgotten what its called now, doesn't matter) and I have used Seachem's product. Both are supposedly "safe" for fish. When I see the fish suddenly swim to the opposite end of the tank when I added this product at one end, and remain there near the surface even gasping slightly, I know it is not "safe for fish." Just because fish do not die does not mean they are not being detrimentally harmed, and this may be temporary or permanent depending upon the substance and the fish.

I didn't realise it's recommended to change 70% of the tank volume once a week. I was thinking along the lines of 50% bi-weekly once everything settles.
Wouldn't changing that much volume harm the ecosystem of an established tank?

Nothing is as beneficial as water changes, and the more the better. But most accept once weekly at 50-70% will remove that amount of "pollution," and there is no other way to remove this crud. Filters do not, plants cannot. Only a substantial water change. I just finished my water changes a few minutes ago, and all three tanks were drained down to about 3-4 inches from the sand. I probably easily changed 80%. I've been doing this for over 25 years now, and my wild caught fish spawn regularly, and more importantly, generally live to or past the average expected lifespan. Providing the right environment (water parameters, aquascape, sufficient numbers of shoaling species, and compatible species) is essential for success. There is no other certainty of healthy fish.

Water stability depends upon significant water changes, along with having a balanced biological system to begin with (meaning the fish species and numbers, not excess feeding, live plants factor in too).

 

[Essjay]

I suppose I should've held my horses before purchasing the Fluval conditioner. Looking at the reviews it seems that most people are happy using it though. Perhaps I'll start with a lower dosage.

Water conditioners should always be used at the recommended dose. If you don't use enough it won't remove all the chlorine, and chlorine in the water is not good for fish.
But they shouldn't be over dosed either.


Like Byron, I use API Tap Water Conditioner. It may look expensive but it uses 1 drop per US gallon/3.8 litres water so a bottle lasts a long time.