Hi I am totally new to tropical fish and have only ever had goldfish when I was very young (30 years ago) My wife and I decided to get our 3 year old son a fish tank for xmas but it transformed into buying a Fluval Roma 200 as a joint present for myself as well. I am an complete novice and have no experience in keeping fish, My fiend advised me to come to your website/Forum and get some information about my new hobby. I set up my tank on Sunday with water adding Nutrafin Cycle and aqua plus, now just waiting 7/10 days till I add a small amount of fish and plants to the tank. I am looking at community fish to start off with and interested in siamese fighting fish as well, Hopefully you will help me get my experience up on my new found hobby.
New To Keeping Tropical Fish
- Thread starter oddjob123
- Start date
Truck
UKAPS
siamese fish (males) cannot be kept together. and shouldnt be kept with brightly coloured fish eg guppies platies. good introductory fish would be white cloud mountain minnows, or danios. tetras are unadvisable to be kept withe siamese fish as they will sabotage their fins.
really you need to keep testing your water you shouldnt add fish until your ammonia is 0
really you need to keep testing your water you shouldnt add fish until your ammonia is 0
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
hello and welcome to the forum,
Trust me you'll be glad that you've found us before you added fish!
Way back when you kept fish before the standard knowledge was that you left a fishtank for around 2 weeks then stocked lightly with hardy fish, however fishkeeping has moved on a bit since then and we now have a much better understanding of the fishes requirements and how to prepare a tank for them.
The nutrafin cycle that you used has the right idea, the filter is basically just a bit of hardware, it circulates water round the tank and catches debris, by itself though it does nothing to diulte fishes waste and as such the water becomes toxic. What you need to dilute the waste is actually two different species of bacteria, one which consumes ammonia (fish waste) and converts it into nitrite, and then another species which converts nitrite into nitrate. Both these species of bacteria will be present in your tank, but not in large enough quantities to deal with the fishes waste. As such we need to nurture the bacteria before we add any fish. This process is called 'fishless cycling' and it's the single most important thing you can do for your fish!!
Now what nutrafic cycle claims to contain is loads of these bacteria, so the theory is that you can just pop it into your tank, the bacteria will make their way to the filter and just sit there waiting for the fish to come along. Perfect, great idea..... just a shame it doesn't work!! Bacteria are a living organism and will not live indefinately on the shelf in a fish shop with no food source, the bacteria we need start to die off after around 24hrs with no food source, depending on the size of the colony and some other things such as the temperature they are stored at they will all have died off within a few days or a week or two. Generally by the time the bacteria have made it into the bottle, through the factory, sat in a warehouse for a bit, been shipped around the country and then sat on teh shelf waiting for you to come along and buy them there's nothing left.
There's two links in my signature that you should read, one is called 'whats cycling' which explains the process in some more detail and the chemical reactions, the other is called 'fishless cycling' which is basically a step by step guide for cultivating the bacteria that you need. It's not complicated, expensive or hard work, but it does take around 4-6 weeks. Now I am well aware with a 3 year old that waiting 4-6 weeks without fish can seem like an impossibility, but if you don't cycle then there's a very strong chance some or all of your first fish will become ill and die, even if they make it through the cycling period they may sustain permanent damage and never fully recover. You try explaining to your son that their favourite new pet died. In that context waiting a few weeks is definately the easy option.
Now we can most certainly help you out with stocking the tank, but I don't want to bombard you with too much info at once, so have a good read of those two links and fire away with any questions or thoughts, once you've got that a bit more sorted we'll start to get onto the good stuff..... the actual fish!
Trust me you'll be glad that you've found us before you added fish!
Way back when you kept fish before the standard knowledge was that you left a fishtank for around 2 weeks then stocked lightly with hardy fish, however fishkeeping has moved on a bit since then and we now have a much better understanding of the fishes requirements and how to prepare a tank for them.
The nutrafin cycle that you used has the right idea, the filter is basically just a bit of hardware, it circulates water round the tank and catches debris, by itself though it does nothing to diulte fishes waste and as such the water becomes toxic. What you need to dilute the waste is actually two different species of bacteria, one which consumes ammonia (fish waste) and converts it into nitrite, and then another species which converts nitrite into nitrate. Both these species of bacteria will be present in your tank, but not in large enough quantities to deal with the fishes waste. As such we need to nurture the bacteria before we add any fish. This process is called 'fishless cycling' and it's the single most important thing you can do for your fish!!
Now what nutrafic cycle claims to contain is loads of these bacteria, so the theory is that you can just pop it into your tank, the bacteria will make their way to the filter and just sit there waiting for the fish to come along. Perfect, great idea..... just a shame it doesn't work!! Bacteria are a living organism and will not live indefinately on the shelf in a fish shop with no food source, the bacteria we need start to die off after around 24hrs with no food source, depending on the size of the colony and some other things such as the temperature they are stored at they will all have died off within a few days or a week or two. Generally by the time the bacteria have made it into the bottle, through the factory, sat in a warehouse for a bit, been shipped around the country and then sat on teh shelf waiting for you to come along and buy them there's nothing left.
There's two links in my signature that you should read, one is called 'whats cycling' which explains the process in some more detail and the chemical reactions, the other is called 'fishless cycling' which is basically a step by step guide for cultivating the bacteria that you need. It's not complicated, expensive or hard work, but it does take around 4-6 weeks. Now I am well aware with a 3 year old that waiting 4-6 weeks without fish can seem like an impossibility, but if you don't cycle then there's a very strong chance some or all of your first fish will become ill and die, even if they make it through the cycling period they may sustain permanent damage and never fully recover. You try explaining to your son that their favourite new pet died. In that context waiting a few weeks is definately the easy option.
Now we can most certainly help you out with stocking the tank, but I don't want to bombard you with too much info at once, so have a good read of those two links and fire away with any questions or thoughts, once you've got that a bit more sorted we'll start to get onto the good stuff..... the actual fish!
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Yes, MW and I and all the beginner section participants get a big smile on when someone manages to be sent here right after getting a new tank but prior to putting fish in prematurely!
Hi and welcome to TFF!
That stern looking mary poppins up there is just about the best advisor you could have hoped to run into as a beginner with a new tank. In fact this whole set of forums is full of great hobbyists who are willing to share their experiences and are fun to interact with. At first it seems odd, and the advice you begin to receive seems even more odd but believe me, its the fastest way to skip past having to learn everything from your own trial and error happenings. Its so much better to have others, who have repeatedly already experienced all this arcane new information, lead you through it the first few times.
Learning about the Nitrogen Cycle is fascinating and as a bonus, understanding it turns out to be really core to knowing about the hobby. The articles that MW has sent you off reading will get you started and you should not hesitate to ask questions, read other beginners threads here and interact with folks. Knowledge and skills are tons more imprortant that rushing things and putting the fish in the tank too soon. This hobby is all about relaxing the having a place in your home and life that is very, very different from all the stress and and high-speed of our modern always-on culture. So the act of settling back and taking your time with it is part of the culture of the hobby and sets a good tone in and of itself.
Anyway, sounds like you've got some beautiful equipment there. Does the 200 mean its 200 litres I presume? What kind of filter does it come with and what sorts of filter media (the stuff inside) do they start you out with? Were you able to get it nice and level and in a good place for a tank?
~~waterdrop~~
Hi and welcome to TFF!
That stern looking mary poppins up there is just about the best advisor you could have hoped to run into as a beginner with a new tank. In fact this whole set of forums is full of great hobbyists who are willing to share their experiences and are fun to interact with. At first it seems odd, and the advice you begin to receive seems even more odd but believe me, its the fastest way to skip past having to learn everything from your own trial and error happenings. Its so much better to have others, who have repeatedly already experienced all this arcane new information, lead you through it the first few times.
Learning about the Nitrogen Cycle is fascinating and as a bonus, understanding it turns out to be really core to knowing about the hobby. The articles that MW has sent you off reading will get you started and you should not hesitate to ask questions, read other beginners threads here and interact with folks. Knowledge and skills are tons more imprortant that rushing things and putting the fish in the tank too soon. This hobby is all about relaxing the having a place in your home and life that is very, very different from all the stress and and high-speed of our modern always-on culture. So the act of settling back and taking your time with it is part of the culture of the hobby and sets a good tone in and of itself.
Anyway, sounds like you've got some beautiful equipment there. Does the 200 mean its 200 litres I presume? What kind of filter does it come with and what sorts of filter media (the stuff inside) do they start you out with? Were you able to get it nice and level and in a good place for a tank?
~~waterdrop~~
Thanks for your advise I have been reading all about the cycles and was going to wait the 7/10 days before i start testing the water, I also know that you cant put 2 male siamese fighters in the same tank and was thinking about maybe 3 females and 1 male in a couple of months time as I was going to try "hardy" fish first which my local shop has advised. The tank is the Fluval Roma 200 and yes it is 200 litres, not bad for a starter tank. You get a very good package with it (200w heater, Fluval 205 external filter with lots of other bits but it did cosh 300 quid but i was looking around for 2 weeks solid for the best package for the space i had. The media in the filter are some white little tubes (2 cages) and carbon in abreathable bag (2 cages) and some sponge filtering. I went for the Fluval over the Juwel as I wanted a external filter, I will carrying on reading information and thank you for posting 
I will let you know the results after sunday.
I will let you know the results after sunday.Hi oddjob im pretty new as well. You should listen to everyones advise and do a fishless cycle with pure ammonia. Its a pain having to wait a month before adding any fish but its well worth it in the long run (especially for the fish). I set up a 110l liter tank a few months ago and from following advice on how to do a fishless cycle iv never had a bad reading of ammonia or nitrite which makes having fish all the more enjoyable (for me as well 
)
I now have 4 very happy corys who have even started to spawn
All the best
)I now have 4 very happy corys who have even started to spawn
All the best
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Oh good, sounds nice and great you went for the external cannister filter. The "white tubes" are what we refer to as "ceramic rings" and they are one of the best types of biomedia because the porous ceramic surface is great for anchoring the beneficial bacteria, the solid hardness of the ceramic also means they last forever and the ring shape and weight allow them to "randomize" the water paths whey they are allowed to fall randomly in their filter tray. The carbon (aka charcoal, aka activated charcoal) is not needed and you can pull that out and put more biomedia in. Carbon is a form of "chemical" filtration and is only needed on special occasions, like to remove medications or tannins or organic odors. Carbon only lasts 3 days and then is removed and disposed of, so you don't want it on a regular basis normally. The kits just put it in hoping that you'll spend a lot replacing it and making them money.Thanks for your advise I have been reading all about the cycles and was going to wait the 7/10 days before i start testing the water, I also know that you cant put 2 male siamese fighters in the same tank and was thinking about maybe 3 females and 1 male in a couple of months time as I was going to try "hardy" fish first which my local shop has advised. The tank is the Fluval Roma 200 and yes it is 200 litres, not bad for a starter tank. You get a very good package with it (200w heater, Fluval 205 external filter with lots of other bits but it did cosh 300 quid but i was looking around for 2 weeks solid for the best package for the space i had. The media in the filter are some white little tubes (2 cages) and carbon in abreathable bag (2 cages) and some sponge filtering. I went for the Fluval over the Juwel as I wanted a external filter, I will carrying on reading information and thank you for posting
The 7/10 day wait that you mention above has no meaning. Its ok to run your filter a day or so before starting your fishless cycling, just to confirm the filter is working, but really there's not even that need. The important thing is to practice with your master test kit on the tap and tank water and to find the pure ammonia that you will be cycling with. You will have plenty of time to discuss stocking plans with the members during the month or more that the filter is becoming operational.
As you will read in the articles, ammonia and nitrite are going to be the key things to focus on. What we've learned in recent years is that ammonia, which is expelled from fish gills during respiration and is created from fish waste, excess food and plant debris, is even more hazardous to fish than previously thought. It causes permanent gill damage and eventual death even in relatively small amounts, even though the effects of the damage are delayed in showing. Our first bacterial species, once its grown and established in the filter will eat ammonia and produce nitrite(NO2) which unfortunately is also very bad for fish. Nitrite(NO2) attaches to fish hemoglobin, taking up spaces reserved for oxygen and causes suffocation with resulting permanent nerve damage. Our second bacterial species in the mature filter will eat nitrite(NO2) and use it to produce nitrate(NO3) which is much less harmful to fish and can be removed during your weekly water change.
The nurturing and growth of these two beneficial species of bacteria is the most important focus of the aquarist during the first month or so of filter preparation. Luckily, we've learned to keep our fish out of this mess while we're doing it and we've learned to use pure household ammonia to make the process go as predictably as possible. During this time, good liquid-reagent based test kits are the best friend of the beginner - they should be the most important item brought home in the beginner's setup. During the fishless cycling process you test for ammonia, nitrite(NO2) and pH usually each morning and evening and keep a log of the results. This gives you "trend" information that helps you know how your cycle is proceeding.
OK, good luck reading and thinking up your next questions,
~~waterdrop~~
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
completely agree with the above, obviously it's your choice weather you cycle with fish or fishlessly, but you should at least make sure you are aware of all the facts and the options before you make your decision. so have a read of the two cycling threads and then make a decision.
we'll support you either way as our top priority is the fish, but we always prefer it when people cycle fishlessly as it is safer for the fish.
keeping a group of fighters like that is a bad idea, the females are agressive too and if you want to keep several of them then you need a very large group of them to spread agression out between them, then if you add a male to the mix he'll just harass the females for sex until they're so stressed out that they get unwell and die, then as the group of females starts to reduce in numbers you'll have the problems multiplied as the few remaining females start to harass each other. oh and in addition to this because of the agression levels of these fish you have to be a bit careful what other fish you have with them. Any colourful fish or fish with long fancy tails are out.
really with betta's it's best to keep males by themselves in small 5 gallon tanks and females in 'sorority' tanks with groups of 6+ females but no other fish.
i'm sorry i know this is gonnsa come across that we're just raining on your parade and all your ideas. but we just have the best interests of you and your fish in mind and want you to have a sucessful fishkeeping experience.
we'll support you either way as our top priority is the fish, but we always prefer it when people cycle fishlessly as it is safer for the fish.
keeping a group of fighters like that is a bad idea, the females are agressive too and if you want to keep several of them then you need a very large group of them to spread agression out between them, then if you add a male to the mix he'll just harass the females for sex until they're so stressed out that they get unwell and die, then as the group of females starts to reduce in numbers you'll have the problems multiplied as the few remaining females start to harass each other. oh and in addition to this because of the agression levels of these fish you have to be a bit careful what other fish you have with them. Any colourful fish or fish with long fancy tails are out.
really with betta's it's best to keep males by themselves in small 5 gallon tanks and females in 'sorority' tanks with groups of 6+ females but no other fish.
i'm sorry i know this is gonnsa come across that we're just raining on your parade and all your ideas. but we just have the best interests of you and your fish in mind and want you to have a sucessful fishkeeping experience.
hi thanks for comments and help, I am taking some water to my local store to check the water out today and im going to purchase the test kits i need to check on a dayly basis. I was given a list of "starter" fish to buy from my local store and they also advised to get a few plants when i put my new fish in, they advised to get 8 fish for my tank size as long as the water tests are ok i should be able to get these today. I will wait till my tank has been running alot longer before deciding on the more exotic fish, thanks again for your help.
Underwurlde
Always look on the bright side of life..
Just to chip in here. Ammonia (and Nitrite) = 0 is indeed what you're after, true. BUT that's after ammonia has PREVIOUSLY been added. In other words, your 'tank' is cycled when your filter can 'eat' (literally) any ammonia (and for that matter Nitrite) present. Just want you to be clear on that. 
My parting advice is to stick to fish for now. Honestly, keeping plants is 10x more difficult than keeping fish!
GL
Andy
My parting advice is to stick to fish for now. Honestly, keeping plants is 10x more difficult than keeping fish!
GL
Andy
LauraFrog
Fish Gatherer
Tap water will come out with zero ammonia and nitrite in most places. Unless your tank is cycled, getting a zero reading does not mean it is safe to add fish because as soon as the fish go in, the levels will go through the roof. Have you decided whether you're cycling fish in or fishless yet?
B13
Fish Crazy
I'm gonna ditto this! My Dad bought his Siamese Fighter two females and the bugger killed and ate one of 'em!!
I have been doing a fishless cycle for 7 days now and had the water checked yesterday and it was fine, I now have to buy some "Hardy fish" to test out my tank. They told me for a 200l tank i should get about 8 fish, I will then later buy more exotic fish. I have now purchased my own testing water kit so i can keep an eye on this once the fish are in, Thanks for your comments and advise and now cant wait to get some fish in my tank.
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
i'm sorry to say this but leaving your tank for 7 days does not constitute a fishless cycle whatever the fish shop may have told you. if you put fish into the tank now you are putting them in considerable danger.
I'll ask you once again to please read the two links on cycling in my thread before you go and buy fish, if you had read them you would understand why what you are doing is not fishless cycling.
if you make a conscious decision to cycle with fish that's one thing, but everyone here has given you all the info you need to make a reasoned device but you've clearly not even read the info and are just doing whatever you want anyway regardless.
come on, it'll take 10 minutes of your life to read the two links, for the sake of the animals whose lives you are taking on responsibility for do you not think it's worth spending 10 minutes researching?
I'll ask you once again to please read the two links on cycling in my thread before you go and buy fish, if you had read them you would understand why what you are doing is not fishless cycling.
if you make a conscious decision to cycle with fish that's one thing, but everyone here has given you all the info you need to make a reasoned device but you've clearly not even read the info and are just doing whatever you want anyway regardless.
come on, it'll take 10 minutes of your life to read the two links, for the sake of the animals whose lives you are taking on responsibility for do you not think it's worth spending 10 minutes researching?
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
The problem that an aquarium shop can't talk about is that the fancy new filter you bought is really just a kit of hardware, but won't be a working filter that can handle fish for another 21 days or more. The stats read fine with tap water in the tank because there is no fish pee in there yet. As soon as fish go in there, the ammonia level is going to start to rise. The 7 days of running the filter on tap water have nothing to do with fishless cycling.
Unlike humans, fish give off ammonia from their gills as part of their respiration process. The fish waste in the tank is rapidly converted to ammonia. Any excess fish food is converted quickly to ammonia. If you have live plants in there, the debris is converted to.. you guessed it, ammonia!
Ammonia, even in very small amounts, causes permanent gill damage and eventual death. After a few weeks of operation, ammonia oxidizing bacteria will start to grow in the filter and they will eat ammonia and convert it to nitrite(NO2.)
Nitrite(NO2), even in very small amounts, causes suffocation. The nitrite molecule attaches to fish blood hemoglobin and uses up the sites that are supposed to carry oxygen molecules. The suffocation causes permanent nerve damage to any fish exposed, and eventual death.
In the 1980's it was figured out that pure household cleaning ammonia could be used in place of "sacrifice" fish to feed and encourage the two beneficial bacterial species we need to grow in our filters to make them operational. The whole skill of doing this has been worked out and practiced by thousands of aquarists now for some 30 years.
One of the side benefits of the fishless cycling process at its best is that it gives the beginning aquarist time to get used to the new maintenance skills of gravel cleaning and water changing prior to having their new pets in the water at the mercy of their learning process. Another benefit is that the prospective fishkeeper has time to discuss and refine a stocking list of fish, which is usually a more complicated process than initially appreciated. But most of all, doing a real fishless cycle brings home the true story of the nitrogen cycle, the central role of the aquarium filter and a familiarity with this most basic set of knowledge in the hobby. Later, when things go wrong (and they will!) the skills are there already.
Its quite possible to do a fishless cycle and still have your local fish store there as a trusted source of tropical fish and supplies. Take advantage of this wonderful site you've stumbled across, having members, some of whom are among the top aquarists in the world. Its a great opportunity and usually a lot of fun too.
~~waterdrop~~
Unlike humans, fish give off ammonia from their gills as part of their respiration process. The fish waste in the tank is rapidly converted to ammonia. Any excess fish food is converted quickly to ammonia. If you have live plants in there, the debris is converted to.. you guessed it, ammonia!
Ammonia, even in very small amounts, causes permanent gill damage and eventual death. After a few weeks of operation, ammonia oxidizing bacteria will start to grow in the filter and they will eat ammonia and convert it to nitrite(NO2.)
Nitrite(NO2), even in very small amounts, causes suffocation. The nitrite molecule attaches to fish blood hemoglobin and uses up the sites that are supposed to carry oxygen molecules. The suffocation causes permanent nerve damage to any fish exposed, and eventual death.
In the 1980's it was figured out that pure household cleaning ammonia could be used in place of "sacrifice" fish to feed and encourage the two beneficial bacterial species we need to grow in our filters to make them operational. The whole skill of doing this has been worked out and practiced by thousands of aquarists now for some 30 years.
One of the side benefits of the fishless cycling process at its best is that it gives the beginning aquarist time to get used to the new maintenance skills of gravel cleaning and water changing prior to having their new pets in the water at the mercy of their learning process. Another benefit is that the prospective fishkeeper has time to discuss and refine a stocking list of fish, which is usually a more complicated process than initially appreciated. But most of all, doing a real fishless cycle brings home the true story of the nitrogen cycle, the central role of the aquarium filter and a familiarity with this most basic set of knowledge in the hobby. Later, when things go wrong (and they will!) the skills are there already.
Its quite possible to do a fishless cycle and still have your local fish store there as a trusted source of tropical fish and supplies. Take advantage of this wonderful site you've stumbled across, having members, some of whom are among the top aquarists in the world. Its a great opportunity and usually a lot of fun too.
~~waterdrop~~
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