New - but dead, Neon

[robertoi]

Hi All,
I have had my 15G tank set up for about 8 weeks now. It has had two gourami (powder blue dwarfs), and a bristlenose catfish in it. Unfortunately both the Gourami died of a disease the vet was not capable of identifying (posted a picture in the Betta and Gourami section if youre interested...).

After running scared for a week or so , I decided to take the plunge and get some more fish. So I bought a school of 6 fairly mature Neon tetras from Maidenhead Aquatics. However, after getting them home, I noticed that one of them was looking a bit bloated, and was gasping for air at the surface. His mouth looked different to the others. So I decided to introduce the 5 healthy neons into the main aquarium straight away, and isolated the ill one in a spare tank I have set up for quarantining and treatment. Anyway, it died within about 4 hours. Water params are fine, although the pH is admittedly a little high for Neons (~7.8).

Any ideas what might have been the cause of his death? ( I think it was Dropsy) And do you think my other Neons are likely to have/ develop the same disease? Also, what does one do in situations where you have bought 3 fish from the same shop, all of which have died (ie the Gourami), Im sure Im not doing anything wrong as all tests seem fine.

Thanks in advance

 

[Lateral Line]

The problem with your gouramis sounds and looks like Open Tuberculosis. This is not a very common condition but is particulaly a problem in bettas and gouramis. It can pass to other species. Importantly, it can also pass to humans, so be very careful you don't have any cuts or scratches on your hands while going in the tank, and scrub well after touching it.

With the suspicion of that, I would be tempted to take back the fish, strip the tank down and give it a VERY thorough clean, sterilise everything and set it up again from scratch, recycle it and basically start again. It may be a good idea to see if the Betta and Gourami people have any ideas before taking this rather extreme measure!

I hope they can suggest something, it is sad when someone just starting gets whacked by something rather rare.

The neon sounds like it was damaged prior to purchase or by the catching/bagging/transport process.

With regards to pH, if your lfs is in the same area as you, their tapwater will be the same as yours, that is what the fish have been kept in, and as long as they look fit and healthy, is not something to worry about. Fiddling with pH and hardness are fraught with pitfalls, and unless you undestand your chemistry, you are better off leaving well alone. I've kept Neons in pH's up to, and probably higher then 8.

 

[robertoi]

Thanks for the reply - I had suspected tuberculosis, but as yet no one I had talked to had suggested is as a possibility, except when prompted by me.

I did actually take the female to a vet just before she died, in a vain attempt to save her. The vet was supposed to be an exotics specialist, but he said he couldnt make a diagnosis - surely a vet would be able to diagnose fish TB visually? He gave me some antibiotics, which sadly didnt work of course.

In terms of what to do next; I am a bit reluctant to start over again. Is there nothing I could treat the tank with that would kill the TB bacteria? Also, I am in rented accommodation which I may well be leaving within the next year or so, so restarting from scratch would be totally disheartening from my point of view. I was considering paying for a postmortem on the female, but decided not to on the grounds of cost, Im beginning to wish I had now. The catfish appears to be doing just fine however.

One way I could work out if it was TB, would probably to get myself tested in a month or so - Ive had fairly badly chapped hands (from the cold) this winter, and have had my hands in the tank recently - although Ive always cleaned up well after (I think/ hope)....

Thanks again

 

[Lateral Line]

If you plan to use self infection as a diagnosis remember that a "No" does not mean it is not in the tank, only that you were lucky enough not to pick it up. If you get unwell any time soon, and cannot attribute the symptoms to anything else, get yourself to a quack and TELL them Mycobacterium marinum is a possibility. Normal testing would not show this up in culture. You can replace a neon, the neon cannot replace you, who would feed them?

Vets are, in my experience, hopeless when presented with a fish. I really recommend hearing what the girls on Gouramis and Bettas say, they will be more familiar with this then me. What I am well aware of however, is that infections are normally held in check by the fishies immune system. Often a sudden stress will cause whatever they were fighting to break out into disease. The fact that you have a new tank would lead me to suspect the cycling state, you say your parameters are fine, are you sure, it is the nitrogen parameters I am particulaly thinking of.

To try to erradicate it from your tank, if it is confirmed, dose it with Kanamycin, if you can get it.

 

[White Whale]

I would be tempted to take back the fish, strip the tank down and give it a VERY thorough clean, sterilise everything and set it up again from scratch, recycle it and basically start again. It may be a good idea to see if the Betta and Gourami people have any ideas before taking this rather extreme measure!

That would be the path I would take. Better safe than sorry.

 

[robertoi]

I nearly phoned up the doctors yesterday after reading about some of the effects mycobacterium can have on people! I read about one guy who had to have plastic surgery on his hand for 2 years....not pretty.

I check (ever couple of days):

Ammonia (<0.3mg/l)
Nitrite (<0.6mg/l)
pH (~7.8 currently)

I'm assuming here of course that my test kits are not screwed. I am suspicious of the Ammonia test as it ALWAYS gives a reading of <0.3... I may get another one. As for other possibilities...the week before the male Gourami started showing symptoms I had introduced an Ancistrus (catfish) into the tank, at the time I inadnertently let a quantity of water from his bag into the tank...could the shop's water be harboring nasty pathogens? I wouldnt have thought so as I assumed they used LOTS of chemicals in the holding tank water.

Secondly, I also started a CO2 reactor that same weekend, which lowered the pH from 8.5 to its current level of about 7.7. Water here is pretty hard (I know Im taking a risk with tetras....), I'd assumed that a pH change toward neutral would be beneficial to any fish, but you never know I guess!

As for fish TB, I went to a veterinary bookshop last night and read up a little. My fish showed none of the other symptoms, like loss of appetite (except at the very end), and were not emaciated, or had skeletal deformitites. Also, the disease appeared to run its full course in only 3 weeks - the books imply that this is too fast for it to have been fish TB. Fish really are strange creatures.....

Thanks again for the advice. I'll probably see how the neons get on now, and then if they 'go next door' I'll restart from scratch.

 

[Lateral Line]

A fully cycled tank should not show any ammonia or nitrite.

If stressed badly enough, a fishies immune system can basically collapse, and anything it is carrying can explode. This would not necessarily give time for all of the symptoms to develop. I hope you are right though.

Good luck.

 

[robertoi]

Hi,
My testing kits will only allow me to say if the ammonia or nitrite are below 0.3 and 0.6 respectively. Can you recommend any which will actually tell you if ammonia is zero?

Thanks

 

[Lateral Line]

I have Seachem and Tetra test kits. I don't know where you are so don't know what is available.

*** EDIT ***

Actually, I still have some Waterlife ones as well that I seem to be using at the moment. The longer you've been in the hobby, the bigger the "box of stuff" becomes!