New Aquarium - Fish Dying

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Hi All ...

This is a great site! I am brand spanking new to this hobby so please bare with me!

Here is my current fishkeeping saga ... (if you are willing to read the whole thing)

I have a 5 gallon Aqueon minibow tank .. came with filter and light. And I bought a heater for it, set at 77 degrees.

I added gravel and three small fake plants.

I filled it up with tap water treated with dechlorinator that handles:

Chlorine
Chloramine
Detoxifies ammonia, metals

I added 1 Tbsp aquarium salt. I let it do its thing for three days.

By the way, I have read in a couple places that a 5 gallon tank is just too small, and too hard to maintain,
and not to even bother my wasting my time, etc. Of course, I read that after I bought the tank and everything
else, not sure how true it is.

I bought one small Tiger Barb, and a Cherry Barb (maybe not the best combination, but that is what it is).

Brought them home. Put the bags with them in it in the aquarium for 15 minutes to acclimate them, then put them in
the tank.

This was Day 1. They were stressed out, but after a few hours they were calm and happy. On Day 2, they were
fully adjusted and happy, Tiger Barb chasing Cherry Barb all over the place (maybe not good .. but their true
colors showing so .. healthy).

Late Day 3 I test the water using water test strips (another mistake maybe). The nitrite and nitrate test results
don't even make sense. Water is pretty hard, PH is at 7.8, ammonia 0.2ppm. I do a 20% water change adding dechlorinated
tap water at same temperature as that already in tank. All is great.

Day 6, fish still happy. I test water. Same test results. I do another 20% water change, same way. Fish seem
very unhappy right after water change. They are not eating, and stop moving -- just move in place.

Fish stay unhappy, "shimmy", followed by hanging at the bottom and not moving much. Tiger Barb no longer
chasing Cherry Barb. Nobody eating.

It took me a while, though, to figure out they were suffering. End of Day 7 I do a 20% water change.
Day 8 morning (today is Day 8 by the way), Tiger Barb is dead in the water. Cherry barb still stressin' out.
I do another 20% water change, and add about 1 tsp of aquarium salt.
I run off to the store, buy a master water test kit and medicine. Test results at this point make more sense:

Ammonia 1.5ppm
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 5ppm
Ph 8

I add medicine to the tank: Tetra Lifeguard All-In-One Treatment (one tablet). (maybe a mistake?)

End of Day 8, Cherry barb is not eating, still shimmy-ing, but also occasionally swimming around the tank,
but staying near the bottom .. looks like an improvement, but I don't know. Will not eat the flakes.
(I have been netting out the extra food that is not eaten as best I can).

So ....

My questions:

Do I need to buy pellets for the Cherry Barb to eat? I saw her eat flakes at the beginning.
Maybe she is still too sick to eat?

I will continue giving the medicine as instructed on the package, though I don't see white spots,
or clamped fins, etc. Should I?

Should I water change once a day for a while (20%) until ammonia goes down? and keep adding aquarium salt?

Is it just a coincidence that they don't like the water changes, or is my water bad ... I had my tap water
in the tank for 3 days before I bought the fish and they seemed fine with the first change, so maybe just
coincidence as the ammonia slowly builds up, but I noticed the negative behavior change right after the water change -- odd.

Any other general advice for me?

My plans for the future if the Cherry Barb dies....

Perform the full nitrogen cycle without any fish. Not sure how to do this. I have heard you can put a
drop of pure ammonia in the tank ... let everything run for about 30 days .. and watch the ammonia fall and
nitrites rise, nitrites fall and initrates rise, then partial water change, then start stocking tank again.

Another plan might just be to perfrom a couple water changes over the next few days to bring the ammonia down
some more and then buy 2 Zebra Danios.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Piti]

That sounds like someone sold you a $50 tank +$100 in fish care and meds.

Sometimes fish dont eat for a bit, it's nothing to over stress yourself over. A friend bought my baby a betta and it hasnt eaten since December 23rd and its still doing relitivly fine. (I now have 4 and Meds were really not nessisary. There are many many things you can and should read on these forums about caring for fishies mainly all of http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/ or the step by step guids to first making tanks.

Btw If I had that tank, I would stick to a betta, it would be very managable and stress free for you Not to mention if you have a good LFS around you, you can pick up an amazing fish, nice hiding spots, and maybe some moss to top it all off in that tank.

 

[notg2009]

A betta seems a much better option for a small tank. my brother has a divider in his 5 gallon and has 2 bettas. They have been doing fine so far. If you want to keep community fish, I suggest starting with a 10 USG (what I did) and learn the basics. As for cycling the tank, I am not patient enough to wait for 30 days! so now that I am upgrading to a 29 USG tank I used Tetra SafeStart which supposedly has live nitrifying species of bacteria in it. I added the stuff today with 2 gouramis, so I can update you on the results tomorrow. I got Tetra SafeStart from Petsmart (USA) for about $13+tax (100 mL ~ 3.3 oz).

I have heard that zebra danios are pretty hardy fish so you can use them for cycling-with-fish process, but you have to be careful how ammonia->nitrIte->nitrAte concentrations change relative to each other.

Anyway, good luck.

P.S. funny thing is that the more you keep at this hobby the more you feel as a newbie since there are so much information floating around; both right and wrong !!!!

 

[Katty]

I second what people are saying about a betta. Great fish, especially for a 5 gallon. Also, definitly check the resource center Piti linked to, you can probably find the cycling articles very useful at this stage.
I think it's the ammonia in the water, not the tapwater itself unless you added a lot of ice-cold water and it shocked them or something?

I would stop using the medications. The fish isn't "sick" in the way that medicine would help. And stuff like Tetra Safestart that notg2009 mentioned sure sounds great, but really it doesn't work, it's just a waste of money, don't fall for it.

If you only have the cherry barb left, maybe you should see if the store will take it back, go through a fishless cycle (which is described in depth at the resource center, check it out), and once that's complete either buy more barbs or a betta or whatever you decide on. Even though fishless takes a long time, you spend that time learning and figuring things out, so that you're more ready when the fish do come.

Also, welcome and good luck!

 

[MHunt]

Basically the tiger barb's been killed by the Ammonia produced in the cycle and the cherry barb sounds like it's heading the same way. The meds and salt are just adding more to the water, and in such a small volume of water what you add has more effect, not necessarily the effect you're wanting. Personally I would stop the meds as you're only trying to treat the symptoms not the cause.

I would test the water daily for ammonia nitrite and nitrate, and if you have any ammonia or nitrite, do a 20% water change. The only chemical I would add is the dechlorinator. Once you've had a spike of ammonia and a spike of nitrite your filters cycled and you can start adding more fish, but all you can really keep in a tank your size is a couple of small fish, cherry barbs, neon tetras, or if the cherry barb doesn't survive have a betta, a much more suitable inhabitant for your tank. If your cherry barb survives I would add at least another cherry barb for company, of the opposite sex to the one you have, that way they'll display to each other and the male cherry barb will keep his colour better. Without that interaction the males can loose their colour and go quite drab like a female.

Either way, you're in the best place to do research and ask questions, this forum is great! Welcome!

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Thanks everyone for the replies. It is Day 9, Cherry Barb still alive, swimming around the tank .. hard for me to tell if it is still stressed.

As someone said, so much contradictory information out there .. hard to sort it out. For example I have heard:

Feed small amounts 2-3 times daily
Feed small amount, once daily
Feed small amounts 2-3 times each day, about 3 days a week.

Not to mention all sort of other things ...

A question about water testing. If I have chloramines in the water, the dechlorinator will break that down into neutralized ammonia and one other thing I don't remember, right? If so, won't the water test detect that ammonia and cause me confusion?

Also, will the good bacteria that develops break down the "netreualized ammonia". Also my decholorinator "neutralizes ammonia". Will that "neutralized ammonia" still show up in the ammonia test? Will the good bacteria "eat it" (turn it into nitrites?).

-- My current plan right now, I guess .. stop aquarium salt (does that kill good bacteria?), stop meds ... do daily 20% water changes until ammonia goes away .. maybe clean gravel.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Wow, this is weird. Something is happening with my water changing.

Within minutes of performing a 20% water change just now the Cherry Barb jerked around, flipped on its back and died. Prior to that it seemed to be improving quite a bit, swimming around, though still stressed.

I had said that the fish haven't liked any of my water changes so far. They look like they are starting to recover, then I
perform a water change and they take a turn for the worse.

To remove the water I used a gravel cleaner/siphon and cleaned the gravel a little at the same time (not sure I did it very well, though, I'm new).

For the new water each time (except for the first time which didn't bother the fish -- coincidence?), there was a sealed gallon jug of spring water that I have that was expired by a few months. I rinsed this jug out thoroughly with just tap water prior to starting using it. I added it half full of tap water... then I added about 1 ml of dechlorinator (handles chlorine and chloramine) (I really only need .5 ml according to the directions 'cause its 5 ml per 10 gallon water, and I am adding 1 gallon of new water, but can't pour it out that small against the measuring cup). Then I add the rest of the water, close it up, shake it real good, let it sit for a few minutes. (Also I make sure the temperature of this new water matches the aquarium. The I pour the water in.

I checked with the agency that provides my tap water ... the water quality is very good, moderate hardness, they do use both chlorine and chloramine for treatment.

What is going on? I have theories, which is the most likely? Something else?

Some theories

1. Pouring the treated tap water from the jug into the aquarium is stirring up the gravel below (it is a small aquarium), causing waste from the gravel to jump up into the water, carrying ammonia, killing the fish quickly since the fish were hanging out at the bottom near the gravel anyway. (there is definitely some junk in the gravel because they weren't eating, but I kept trying to feed, and it is hard to remove the leftovers they didn't eat.

2. Something is wrong with my tap water ... but the "wrong" stuff gets filtered out if you let the water sit in an aquarium with a filter for a few days (explaining my initial success) ... but this bad stuff is not handled by the decholorinator..
3. Something is wrong with the dechlorinator I am using or I am dechlorinating incorrectly.
4. There is something inside the spring water gallon jug that is somehow polluting the water.
5. Something else.

I'm a newbie .. I'm guessing somehow (maybe hoping) that the problem is number 1, because that would be the easiest for me to handle next time (don't overfeed, maybe cycle the tank fishless and try again, etc.)

The fish were happy with the first water change ... not sure if I used the same container for that very first water change .. (maybe not) but also at that point less debris, ammonia in the gravel .. so maybe just coincidence?

This is just real strange -- to see my fish hurt (killed) rather than helped by the water changes.

Ideas for me! Thanks again in advance.

 

[Katty]

The one theory I've heard behind fish dying after water changes is the fish's body becomes accustomed to the bad quality water over time, and after say months or a year of living in those conditions with bad stuff slowly building up, the owner suddenly changes a good amount of the water. The water parameters change so fast that the fish's body can't cope with it, they become so stressed that they die.

But, you've only had the fish tank for a week or so so I can't see that scenario happening in such a small time period. It's possible but it doesn't sound so likely.

Do you have carbon in the filter? Letting the water run through the carbon filter for a few days might have been cleaning out whatever bad thing could be in the water, but I don't know. The spring water bottle is fine unless you washed it with soap.

If you are concerned about the water, maybe you could try using only bottled spring water on the tank and see if fish still die then. But I have a feeling that it's not the tap water...

There's also the possibility your tap water has ammonia in it, too. Have you tested the tap water alone?

Neutralized ammonia is harmless to fish, usable by bacteria, and can show up on the ammonia test.

 

[This Old Spouse]

Something I've always done with all my tanks is to add the new water into the filter before I've cleaned it (the filter). I figure it's just a little bit of insurance.

 

[notg2009]

This is pretty strange!!! What I can think of is maybe the water temp was not right; did you use a thermometer to make sure? Usually a temperature of around 78 F (25.5 C) is recommended for most freshwater tropical fish. a temperature higher than that of the safe range can denature proteins very fast or a temperature too low can cause cellular function to slow down greatly!

I don't think that waste coming up from the gravel can kill fish that fast, unless you poured the water in very fast and a sea storm happened there or there were too much waste (ammonia, waste particles, etc) present.

Is there even a filter included in the 5 gallon tank pack?? if not then harmful stuff would not get picked up by anything and they accumulate in the tank.

It is really up to you but I think a 5 gallon tank with no filtering system is only good for 1-2 bettas (separated). If you want to keep schools of fish maybe 10 gallon is where you want to start. STARTER PACKS USUALLY come with tank+filter+fish food sample+dechlorinator sample+ etc, so you would only need a heater (if not included).

AGAIN I would recommend getting the tube with the rubber pump as they don't disturb the water when vacuuming the gravel. I attached a net to the intake part so that nothing gets in other than small waste material.

Good luck.

 

[JasonandJill]

I'm still learning, but are these fish supposed to have salt in their water??

 

[ddgbumblebee]

Just a thought, is the water that you pour into the tank during your water change around the same temperature as that that is already in the tank. Becuase if you were pouring much colder water into the tank then they would definately get stressed out and go into shock. Just a thought

 

[Katty]

I'm having another thought... Maybe the pH of fresh tap water is different than that of the old tank water. Sometimes there is a difference between the two.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

I'm still learning, but are these fish supposed to have salt in their water??

I have heard that a small amount of aquarium salt (1 Tbsp per 5 gallons) can be good for freshwater fish (lower stress, resist
disease, etc.). I have heard that guppies need aquarium salt to have a good chance, for example. Adding the aquarium salt
is not the same as setting up a saltwater aquarium

But I am VERY new at all this.

 

[CrustyOnEastCoast]

Okay, as a quick answer to some of the replies, I have been careful to match tank temperature with my water changes, and my tank has a filter and heater and all that is set up and was running for about 4 days prior to getting the fish.

Katty, you asked some very interesting precise questions and I have some interesting data.

My tap water has chlorine and chloramine in it. Chloramine can be broken down into neutralized ammonia by a decholorinator, so I don't know if that skews the results ... but ...

I tested my tap water straight out of the faucet with no conditioning:

Tap Water Ammonia - 2 ppm

Tap Water Ph - 7.4

Tap Water Nitrate - 0 (I was just curious about this one)

------

Tank Water Test:

Tank Water Ph - 8.0

----

So, assuming that the chloramine in the tap water doesn't skew the test results, it would seem that my tap water has ammonia in it and I was actively poisoning my fish with each water change!

Also, is the ph level difference between the tank (8.0) and the tap water (7.4) a problem for a 20% water change? (Course I did several of these water changes just days apart .. maybe exacerbating the problem).

If the Ph difference is a problem, what to do to about it? I have heard that messing with Ph is a real pain. For the ammonia problem, what to do as well? use spring water instead of tap water? The dechlorinator claims it detoxifies ammonia .. but maybe not so well .. since that is not its primary purpose (primary purpose being to render harmless the chlorine and chloramine -- which again breaks down into harmless ammonia, I thought)

Also, notg2009, I think I may have indeed poured the water too fast and hit the gravel and stirred up some gook, but that gook is only 7-8 days old .. don't know if that is really the issue or not .. maybe.