New 50L Aquarium

[Guest72461]

Hi all

I was planning on doing the fishless cycle by going the whole ammonia+wait way, but there is just no ammonia to be found where I live. I read that an option (other than spending $20 on 100g of Ammonchlor) is to put some fish food (or a dead shrimp?!) into the tank instead, and let that decompose. I really don't want to buy a few fish and force them to endure the fluctuations in water characteristics!

Now, I'm not an expert or claiming to be going about it the right way - I just wanted to ask if it's ok to go this route. How do the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels work in this case? How do I tell when the tank is ready? How long will the process take if I'm going this route?

I filled the tank 2 days ago, then today I put in the dechlorinator (normal dechlorinator, not Prime/ammonia-neutralising stuff), gravel, driftwood, heater, filter, switched the lights, heater and filter on... and dunked in a bit of food (normal amount I'd feed the fish I'm intending to get, eventually).

The pH is 7.8 or more, the ammonia is currently 0, nitrites are 0.25 and nitrates are 0. I'm using an API Master Kit (so posh!).

Please could you guys advise me of anything I need to know, or tips/suggestions etc. I have looked in the beginners section, but don't find anything, other than fish in/fishless cycling... or am I being totally unobservant?

 

[KateT]

I ordered a bottle of household ammonia off the internet (not because I couldn't find any, but because I was too lazy to go and look!)

 

[Tizer]

p1ss in the tank yourself, tiz how its done on fish farms

 

[Guest72461]

Eww, nahhh I'd rather not!

 

[waterdrop]

One of the reasons we get pretty extreme trying to find and help others find the needed simple household aqueous ammonia is that it makes things so much easier. It is just much more controlled and gives a lot more feedback about where your process stands. I know that in some locations you have to be quite creative about finding the right stuff or having it sent in but in the past we have tried to encourage people to let this be part of the adventure! Talk to people. Unexpected sources of help can turn up!

OK, still, we should say that fishless cycling with organic breakdown sources can work though. It's important to understand that what is then happening is that complex organic molecules (substances that were previously part of living things and therefor have carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen atoms among other things) are being processed by heterotrophic bacteria (lots of -these- species are also present in our tank water) and a certain amount of ammonia(NH3) will be produced (along with a certain about of dissolved organic carbons (DOC) and other things.)

I believe the principle problems faced with organic sources are the inability to control the "dosing" level (it is very hard to achieve high ammonia concentrations without overshooting and encouraging the wrong species of autotrophs) and of course the stink. Trying to get the ammonia levels above small amounts can result in a pretty stinky tank! Also, since the process is indirect it usually adds time. Among the benefits of organic sourcing is that you get a healthy biota of heterotrophs coming along the whole time and are therefor moving more quickly toward the full complexity of a healthy freshwater environment at an earlier stage. I would say the principle problem is that in this forum we can barely control the raging impatience of most beginners on ammonia, much less as they follow the vagaries of an organic source .

Anyway, there's my 2 cents to help you with your decisions. In my opinion it's all worth it as the crystal green freshwater sparkle that awaits you at the end of a tiring work day is worth its weight .

~~waterdrop~~
ps. The problem with human urine sourcing is really antibiotics and other complicated drugs that can be in it. It's not necessarily a bad source but in general we avoid it for these reasons.

 

[Guest72461]

LOL ok, so how long will I have to be patient if the ammonia takes up to 4 weeks... ?

And... I'm a little afraid to ask now: how bad will the tank stink.. I've set the tank up in the bedroom (I was testing it for leaks and the permanent cupboard it'll be going onto wasn't ready - long story), intending to go the ammonia route but now can't... will we be dying to sleep in the garage because of the smell?

Drat, this seems to be such a palava when ammonia woulda been 'quick and easy'

A few other questions:

- do I keep 'feeding' the flakes to the water every day?

- am I able to buy plants now or will they just die cos of the unstable water?

- providing I can get plants, will they help the process along, due to their having bacteria on them from the LFS?

 

[Tizer]

ammonia and plants dont mix well mate, save them until after the cycle else you just get algae

 

[fluttermoth]

The amount of ammonia you use for cycling won't smell at all; it comes a weak solution (normally 9.5%) anyway and you'll be using only a few mls

 

[waterdrop]

No, the discussion is about letting fishfood rot, not using household ammonia. And I don't really know as I've not done it. I've just heard reports on here of people saying the smell was pretty strong (I think worse for shrimp than for fishfood.) One of the main problems is having it be hard to get a high level of ammonia from the organic breakdown. This is one of the reasons it more often gets used to jumpstart a fish-in cycle rather than working for the full fishless cycling period.

If you have water that has some reasonable hardness to it and are interested enough to start to get into the whole plant subject then another thing you could do would be to attempt a bit of a "silent cycle" where you use plants to make the tank more safe for the few fish that are in for a fish-in cycle.

As mentioned, there is the main problem that fishless cycling tanks are very prone to algae if the light needs to be on for plants. Light plus ammonia equals algae! But on the other hand, not all tanks actually get an algae problem and if you are watchful you can use your light carefully to try and control it. In one way, the fishfood technique and the plants would go together somewhat as fishfood can provide a significant amount of the macronutrients that plants need, mostly the nitrogen and phosphorus (two out of the N,P,K.)

So for plants, light is a skill set, CO2 is a skill set, nutrition is a skill set and algae is a skill set that draws on some experience in the first three skills. But of course everyone must start somewhere and that start always involves just buying some plants, putting them in and seeing how they do.

It is impossible to get in to the skill sets mentioned in much detail but I will say that if you were to study the PARC articles (in planted section) and look for "easy plants" such as some of the stem plants, especially inexpensive ones that you could toss if they get covered in algae, this might be a plan. Light would need to be somewhere fairly close to one watt per US gallon (not over two watts) and you'd want to consider dosing a liquid carbon (Excel in the US, EasyCarbo or Excel in the UK) and dosing a good set of macro and micronutrients. Dave has written an article in the PARC about planted people starting up with plants instead of fishless cycling.

The thing to understand about plants is that they have a lot of "leverage." Sometimes a bit much for the beginner. If the plants take off and are healthy then they are a strong positive force for what you're trying to do (ie. fish-in cycle) but they need to be actually actively growing for that to work best. If the plants die, they leverage things in the wrong direction because they can overload the tank with debris and allow the heterotrophs to process that debris into too much ammonia!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Guest72461]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Ok, the planted-tank method seems much better than dumping in fish food every day... I'm reading up on PARC right now - thanks for the pointer

Hopefully the plants will grow well (I'll probably have to stick to the low light/no nutrients/no CO2/no algae route) - then I can also get a little group of fish to start with

This way, we won't have to evacuate the house when the smell goes bad

Thanks Waterdrop - you've been most helpful

 

[Guest72461]

I checked my water stats, ammonia was under 0.25 (I wouldn't even say halfway between 0 and 0.25, looking at the API chart), nitrites were 0.25 (or less, too), nitrates were probably under halfway between 0 and 5...

Checked pH - it was quite high, so I've dropped it to 6.8. Temperature is hovering at about 25C. I did a waterchange (10% for now).

Bought a heap of plants, plus a little group of 3 glowlights (there were only 3 left at the shop - I am going to get 5 more once the tank's settled) + 8 black neons. From my experience, they seem pretty hardy generally, and if they all survive (I hope they will!), then I'm not stuck with fish I didn't really want in my 'ideal' tank. There are a few hitchhiker snails now in the tank too. I did put in a little plant-food as well, as I don't think there is anything in the water right now for the plants to eat.

Took my time fiddling with the tank after dropping the pH (so that the change was completed well before the fish were added), planting the plants and rearranging the filter spray-pipe. The filter that came with this tank is a 200l+ one, which is a little strong for the tetras I'm intending to get, but I've pointed the spray-pipe against the glass so that at least they aren't in a wind-tunnel.

The fish are now in the tank, and, what I hope is a good sign, are already staking the place out. 2 of the glowlights seem to be male and are already doing the typical tetra fin-flicking territorial dance at each other.

Holding thumbs that this works out fine! I'm going to check the water stats continuously now on, until I know it's settled.

Another question for you guys: in a 50l aquarium, how many of the tiny tetras can I get? I'm interested in:

Glowlights (8)
Black Neons (8)
Cochu's Blues (8)
Cardinals (8)
Marbled Hatchetfish (6)
Kuhli loaches (4)

I know I can't get all of the above fish, don't worry! The LFS said I could get 40... does this sound right??

Thanks guys for your input *thumbs-up*

 

[waterdrop]

I checked my water stats, ammonia was under 0.25 (I wouldn't even say halfway between 0 and 0.25, looking at the API chart), nitrites were 0.25 (or less, too), nitrates were probably under halfway between 0 and 5...

I don't understand. Are these tap water stats or tank water before or after fish? If this is a test result after fish then they are already at the upper limit of poisons we want them to be exposed to. The range they need to stay in is zero ppm to 0.25ppm for both ammonia(NH3) and nitrite(NO2) as measured by a good liquid-reagent test kit.

Checked pH - it was quite high, so I've dropped it to 6.8. Temperature is hovering at about 25C. I did a waterchange (10% for now).

Oh dear, the most important thing about pH is that it stay stable at whatever it is and stay close to your source water. Usually, setting up doctored water for fish means putting chemicals in, which we don't recommend. Is this coming from LFS advice?

Bought a heap of plants, plus a little group of 3 glowlights (there were only 3 left at the shop - I am going to get 5 more once the tank's settled) + 8 black neons. From my experience, they seem pretty hardy generally, and if they all survive (I hope they will!), then I'm not stuck with fish I didn't really want in my 'ideal' tank. There are a few hitchhiker snails now in the tank too. I did put in a little plant-food as well, as I don't think there is anything in the water right now for the plants to eat.

This sounds already more than the appropriate number of fish for a Fish-In Cycle. What that means is just that your daily water changes will probably end up being larger and/or more frequent, which can be some considerable work over the 2 months of the cycling. The plants will help but they can only do a fraction of the cleaning.

Took my time fiddling with the tank after dropping the pH (so that the change was completed well before the fish were added), planting the plants and rearranging the filter spray-pipe. The filter that came with this tank is a 200l+ one, which is a little strong for the tetras I'm intending to get, but I've pointed the spray-pipe against the glass so that at least they aren't in a wind-tunnel.

This sounds good, you want a lot of movement despite what the fish want and you want to play with things such that you get good surface movements because this is how oxygen (which both the bacteria and the fish need) will get in to the water in slightly higher amounts.

The fish are now in the tank, and, what I hope is a good sign, are already staking the place out. 2 of the glowlights seem to be male and are already doing the typical tetra fin-flicking territorial dance at each other.

Holding thumbs that this works out fine! I'm going to check the water stats continuously now on, until I know it's settled.

The goal in any kind of Fish-In Cycling is to be a detective and figure out what percentage and frequency of water changes (using good technique) will keep both ammonia and nitrite below 0.25ppm until you can be home again from work or school or whatever to change water again. If you have already altered the water with pH up or down then you will need to do calculations to ease this alteration back in the direction of your tap water, since all the water changing will necessarily mean you'll eventually want to not have to doctor it every time. The ideal pH for growing bacteria is 8.0 to 8.4 anyway, so if your pH is closer to that you will be better off and the fish will be fine as long as any changes are very, very slow.

Another question for you guys: in a 50l aquarium, how many of the tiny tetras can I get? I'm interested in:

Glowlights (8)
Black Neons (8)
Cochu's Blues (8)
Cardinals (8)
Marbled Hatchetfish (6)
Kuhli loaches (4)

I know I can't get all of the above fish, don't worry! The LFS said I could get 40... does this sound right??

40 fish in a 13G/50L sounds like a recipe for disaster. Understocking for the first 2 years is the way to have a successful first experience and to learn hands-on what a properly running tank feels like, after which you can experiment some since when things go wrong you'll recognize it better. The rough horizontal inch of mature fish per US gallon guideline is a good starting point. You'll be able to have slightly more small tetras than this guideline implies but you need to work with some of the members here. The LFS will just attempt to pack your aquarium with fish because they are sales, regardless of now nice the owners are.

Thanks guys for your input *thumbs-up*

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tizer]

I checked my water stats, ammonia was under 0.25 (I wouldn't even say halfway between 0 and 0.25, looking at the API chart), nitrites were 0.25 (or less, too), nitrates were probably under halfway between 0 and 5...

Checked pH - it was quite high, so I've dropped it to 6.8. Temperature is hovering at about 25C. I did a waterchange (10% for now).

Bought a heap of plants, plus a little group of 3 glowlights (there were only 3 left at the shop - I am going to get 5 more once the tank's settled) + 8 black neons. From my experience, they seem pretty hardy generally, and if they all survive (I hope they will!), then I'm not stuck with fish I didn't really want in my 'ideal' tank. There are a few hitchhiker snails now in the tank too. I did put in a little plant-food as well, as I don't think there is anything in the water right now for the plants to eat.

Took my time fiddling with the tank after dropping the pH (so that the change was completed well before the fish were added), planting the plants and rearranging the filter spray-pipe. The filter that came with this tank is a 200l+ one, which is a little strong for the tetras I'm intending to get, but I've pointed the spray-pipe against the glass so that at least they aren't in a wind-tunnel.

The fish are now in the tank, and, what I hope is a good sign, are already staking the place out. 2 of the glowlights seem to be male and are already doing the typical tetra fin-flicking territorial dance at each other.

Holding thumbs that this works out fine! I'm going to check the water stats continuously now on, until I know it's settled.

Another question for you guys: in a 50l aquarium, how many of the tiny tetras can I get? I'm interested in:

Glowlights (8)
Black Neons (8)
Cochu's Blues (8)
Cardinals (8)
Marbled Hatchetfish (6)
Kuhli loaches (4)

I know I can't get all of the above fish, don't worry! The LFS said I could get 40... does this sound right??

Thanks guys for your input *thumbs-up*

I wouldnt be looking at any more than a dozen fish for a 50Litre. I put 20 tiger barbs in my 90litre and it looks amazingly busy and im in two minds at the moment if i will keep them in there or not.

 

[Guest72461]

Thanks for the replies! I was worried I was going about it in completely the wrong way - now I hope I'm at least going in the right direction, if a bit wobbly! I do have a 100l tetra tank (left behind when I moved country) which my sister has adopted, and the fish in there are all over 5 years old now. I'm hoping this new one will be just as stable and happy as that one is!

These little tetras are really tiny (youngsters I guess), will that count in my favour if I've already overstocked for a fish-in cycle?

The water was tested in the tank, before the fish but after the plants were put in. The ammonia and nitrites were both under 0.25ppm - judging the liquid colour against the API chart, both were closer to the 0-colour than then 0.25 colour.

I did a test this morning and the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are the same (below 0.25). The pH seems closer to 7 than 6.8 now (yesterday I used a different kit to test the pH, today I used the API kit - I'll stick to the API now). The fish are all perky and seem settled and inquisitive.

I'm going to do a waterchange now, and I'll measure the tap water's pH. I'll gradually adjust the tank back up to the tap water's pH (I think it was about 7.8). I dropped the pH to allow the fish to adjust gently to being in my tank, they seem alright with it now. I hope I haven't delayed the bacteria's growth too much by doing that.

Would +-20 little tetras be fine in a 50l?

 

[waterdrop]

Sure, if you think of each little tetra as maturing only to about an inch in old age then 13 inches is your rough starting point for a tank that runs itself smoothly and allows for vacation mishaps etc. To the extent that you are able to provide really good and steady weekly cleanings and monthly (or whatever) filter maintenance then you can push on up in the 20 range pretty easily I'd guess. If the plants stay healthy they will help of course.

A log you can refer back to will help you with the cycle, you'll see little changes better, which will help you with your water change decisions.

~~waterdrop~~