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New 220L tank set-up questions

Well, I'm pretty proud of myself! That means I'm learning fish lingo!


I'd give you the rest of my 10lb bag if you lived closer! I'll never use very much of it with my teeny little tank!

Since I only use about a 1/4 of a cup in a bag in my filter I don't know about this but I see Byron answered this :)


Isn't that just always the case?! You're all excited and sailing along to the finish line and BAM!


That's perfect for the wood (anyway) because you want to water log it so it doesn't float and you'll want any tannins to leach out. You can keep changing the bucket of water if it is leaching.
I had plants in my tank while cycling and they did very well. I'd also picked up a hitchhiking assassin snail on a plant that had to survive thru my cycling as well. I felt terrible for him but he hid under the substrate until things were safe (smart little guy) and he lived for about a year after. Loved him!


I didn't know that about plants in buckets! Great tip! I guess the lack of light and water movement?

Hey, I love the look of the substrate you've got in your tank. Can I ask what it is? (I never knew I'd be so interested in substrate, lol!)
 
I know right? I love my substrate!!!
It's Seachem Fluorite Black, link below.
https://www.chewy.com/seachem-flour...gclid=CM33oc2AmtMCFdGCswodd-8Gug&gclsrc=aw.ds
Ah! I have definitely seen that on my searches of Australian stores. Does it have a smell at all? Early on I was considering a substrate called eco-complete, but I read multiple reviews that described its 'bad egg' smell.

Hmmm..... perhaps I could do what you do, and have some aragonite in the sump filter, then have a nice, black, plant-friendly substrate in the tank, and some lighter-coloured rocks, drift wood & plants.

Decisions......

:)

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Does it have a smell at all
Nope! No smell! I love it so much. It looks so good and when my little Orange sunkist shrimp crawls across it ...it looks like a dream! haha, I'm such a dork!
It really makes everything pop!
And yes, you can hide little bags in filter and behind plants and such.
 
Byron, I just want to double check - the silica is bad because of the increased chance of diatoms?

Yes. Reliable sources cite silicates as a cause of diatoms. Admittedly if the light and nutrients are in balance, this shouldn't be an issue. But I always prefer caution to neglect.
 
Ah! I have definitely seen that on my searches of Australian stores. Does it have a smell at all? Early on I was considering a substrate called eco-complete, but I read multiple reviews that described its 'bad egg' smell.

Hmmm..... perhaps I could do what you do, and have some aragonite in the sump filter, then have a nice, black, plant-friendly substrate in the tank, and some lighter-coloured rocks, drift wood & plants.

Decisions......

:)

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Caution here, with Flourite (or Eco-Complete). They can be dangerous for substrate fish. It was in my tank using Flourite Black (the gravel, not the sand) that my cories were seriously damaged; barbels lost, and one even lost about a third of its mouth. They all recovered after I moved them to another tank with play sand, and are still alive today (four years after) including the one missing part of its mouth. Looks comical, but obviously it has managed to feed.

I don't know if the Flourite sand has this problem or not, but I would expect it might if it is the same material.

The other thing is that the plants did not show improvement during the two years I had this in the tank. I still had to use liquid fertilizers and substrate tabs, and I felt I had wasted $180 for Flourite; I replaced it with play sand in the same tank for $14). The plants are just as good, it looks better (to me), and I have no fish worries.

Byron.
 
They can be dangerous for substrate fish
OMG!!! Well Crap!!!
I certainly can't keep plants alive that have to be rooted in the substrate but I'd always assumed that it was because of my low tech set up ....and the fact that my main Anubias is so huge that it umbrellas all other plants keeping them from getting proper light. But hmmmmmmm

Why do you think it's harmful? Is there a certain ingredient in it?!

Fortunately I don't have the room for cories so there will be no issue there but if there is something harmful I sure want to know.
I'd never heard anything bad about this stuff before...
and damn it sure is expensive!!

This was one of those "listened to the stupid LFS people" purchases. I hadn't ever thought I needed to ask a forum about substrate?! I've since learned to ask every single little question that pops into my mind here...instead of LFS.
 
OMG!!! Well Crap!!!
I certainly can't keep plants alive that have to be rooted in the substrate but I'd always assumed that it was because of my low tech set up ....and the fact that my main Anubias is so huge that it umbrellas all other plants keeping them from getting proper light. But hmmmmmmm

Why do you think it's harmful? Is there a certain ingredient in it?!

Fortunately I don't have the room for cories so there will be no issue there but if there is something harmful I sure want to know.
I'd never heard anything bad about this stuff before...
and damn it sure is expensive!!

This was one of those "listened to the stupid LFS people" purchases. I hadn't ever thought I needed to ask a forum about substrate?! I've since learned to ask every single little question that pops into my mind here...instead of LFS.

The harm for substrate fish is the sharpness. When I was persuaded by a couple members on another forum to try one of these so-called plant enriched substrates I had Flourite Black and Eco-Complete locally available. I felt both in my hand, and the EC felt sharp but the Flourite I thought was not. So I ordered it online to save money (it's even more expensive in stores). It was after a couple weeks with fish in the tank that I saw the problem with the cories; barbels worn down, a couple had bloody mouths. It happened pretty quickly. I moved them out to a sand tank and kept the Flourite tank running for two years before I decided the plants were really not benefiting so I tore it down.

Byron.
 
The harm for substrate fish is the sharpness
Oh I see. Poor little cories and their sensitive little mouths and barbels.
Mine doesn't feel sharp at all but I couldn't say from a fishes perspective.
My shrimp seem to love rooting around on it and my nerite often crawls all over the bottom (and everywhere else ...and I'd have to imagine he'd stay away from the bottom if it were sharp...
But again...I'm not a snail. ha
Thanks for the info!
 
Nope! No smell! I love it so much. It looks so good and when my little Orange sunkist shrimp crawls across it ...it looks like a dream! haha, I'm such a dork!
It really makes everything pop!
And yes, you can hide little bags in filter and behind plants and such.
So shrimp & livebearers mix? Yay! I was beginning to think there wouldn't be anything else I could put in my tank. I'm really quite set on getting livebearers. :)

I worked out roughly how much substrate I think I need to buy, and how much it would cost to buy Seachem Flourite Black (or Seachem Flourite Black Sand), and it'll set me back at least a couple of hundred dollars. I might have to stick with the aragonite & coral sand that I've already got, for finance's sake. Is it a really huge deal to change substrate if you change your mind after everything is set up?

:)

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Yes. Reliable sources cite silicates as a cause of diatoms. Admittedly if the light and nutrients are in balance, this shouldn't be an issue. But I always prefer caution to neglect.
I can understand that. It seems like quite a balancing act, with so very many things influencing each other.

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I worked out roughly how much substrate I think I need to buy, and how much it would cost to buy Seachem Flourite Black (or Seachem Flourite Black Sand), and it'll set me back at least a couple of hundred dollars. I might have to stick with the aragonite & coral sand that I've already got, for finance's sake. Is it a really huge deal to change substrate if you change your mind after everything is set up?

Yes, changing the substrate is the most involved process. You need to completely empty the tank, and you lose the bacterial bed in the substrate (this is very different from the nitrifying bacteria in filters, much more complex). However, it is possible, I've changed all of my 8 tanks to sand, and some more often with other substrates over the past nine or so years. But it is better to decide on the fish and other needs, and set up for those from the beginning.

Which brings me to your water parameters and livebearers. You must go with a calcareous substrate as you have very soft water and you intend livebearers (shrimp will be better too), or with preparing water every water change. The Flourite substrates do not increase GH, KH and pH so these would not achieve the goal anyway.
 
Thank you Byron. I just realised that I missed a few messages from you and thrujenseyes. Woops!

I think I'm quickly being put off the flourite (as stunningly beautiful as it looks), but I just want to clarify: having a media bag with aragonite sand in the sump with the filter wouldn't be enough to raise the pH, KH & GH, because my water is so soft and it's a biggish tank?



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Thank you Byron. I just realised that I missed a few messages from you and thrujenseyes. Woops!

I think I'm quickly being put off the flourite (as stunningly beautiful as it looks), but I just want to clarify: having a media bag with aragonite sand in the sump with the filter wouldn't be enough to raise the pH, KH & GH, because my water is so soft and it's a biggish tank?

When I had aragonite (and dolomite some years prior) in a mesh bag in the filter, it kept the pH around 6.6 which was my aim. The GH did not rise much at all, which I didn't want (soft water fish). When I had the substrate composed of dolomite (aragonite is much the same thing and more attractive) it raised the GH and pH sufficient that I had livebearers for several years, and even a tank of rift lake cichlids. This was back in the 1980's and I didn't measure GH back then, but I would expect the GH was certainly adequate for the fish since they lived for several years. I cannot remember what the pH got up to, but I didn't fuss over it so long as it was in the high 7's or higher, and I remember it was that.

The GH is the most critical aspect here, as livebearers must have calcium and magnesium in the water in order that their physiology can function normally. In soft water they will be debilitated, weakened, and slowly die. I would use a calcareous substrate, as it is the most inexpensive, is reliable and lasts for years and years.

On the Flourite appearance, this would be quite different under water and certain light, I found out. It was not black but a dark grey, and every bit of detritus showed up. I tried it, but it didn't work, it harmed the fish, the plants didn't benefit...why bother?

Byron.
 
When I had aragonite (and dolomite some years prior) in a mesh bag in the filter, it kept the pH around 6.6 which was my aim. The GH did not rise much at all, which I didn't want (soft water fish). When I had the substrate composed of dolomite (aragonite is much the same thing and more attractive) it raised the GH and pH sufficient that I had livebearers for several years, and even a tank of rift lake cichlids. This was back in the 1980's and I didn't measure GH back then, but I would expect the GH was certainly adequate for the fish since they lived for several years. I cannot remember what the pH got up to, but I didn't fuss over it so long as it was in the high 7's or higher, and I remember it was that.

The GH is the most critical aspect here, as livebearers must have calcium and magnesium in the water in order that their physiology can function normally. In soft water they will be debilitated, weakened, and slowly die. I would use a calcareous substrate, as it is the most inexpensive, is reliable and lasts for years and years.

On the Flourite appearance, this would be quite different under water and certain light, I found out. It was not black but a dark grey, and every bit of detritus showed up. I tried it, but it didn't work, it harmed the fish, the plants didn't benefit...why bother?

Byron.
Thanks again, Byron. I've finally been able to connect the plumbing and fill the tank. I found some nice-looking aragonite sand (Classica is the brand), but I only bought one 10kg bag because of all the sand I've already got at home, including a 10 kg bag of Red Sea Reef Base, which is aragonite sand.

The Red Sea Reef Base is extremely white, so I'm not going to use it. I've used the 10kg of Classica Aragonite sand and 20kg of Pisces Coral Sand (it's 99.8% CaCO3). I already regret using the Coral Sand, as it is extremely fine and the water is glowing white under the lights, plus it's way too white. I might scoop out as much of the white sand as I can, and replace it with more Classica Aragonite, or mix something darker in to it. Since I can't have catfish, I'm wondering whether to get a darker substrate with bigger pieces, if they'd sit on top of the sand, and if the aragonite will still do its GH-raising job from below it. (Would it?)

How slowly will the GH etc take to rise with the aragonite? It is rising. When I first started filling the tank, with just some minimal coral sand in it (from the display - I got most of it out but not all), plus appropriate doses of Prime & Flourish (for the drift wood with anubias & moss) the water parameters as per an API 5 in 1 test strip were:

pH 6 - 6.6
KH 40
GH 0-30

It stayed half full with an air pump (not the filter yet) & under lights (only during the day) for a couple of days until I managed to hook everything up, rinse & put in the sand, fill the rest of the tank & sump and turn everything on. I put in the appropriate extra doses of Prime & Flourish, plus some 'ViviD' the local fish shop gave me (now I forget what it's for), and turned on the heater & sump filter pump.

1 day after turning everything on, the water parameters (test strip again) were:

pH just shy of 7.0
KH 40
GH 30-60

The temperature wasn't rising much (24C), but according to the cycling guide on this forum that's enough to start cycling, so I added approx 33mL of .02% ammonia. Half an hour later the API Ammonia (test tube) test read 2-4 ppm ammonia.

Eight hours later (just now) the water parameters (test strip) are:

pH 7.0
KH 80
GH 60

So the pH, KH & GH are all going up. I haven't put in any of the blue crystals that every single fish shop says to use. They raise the GH (but not the KH). I'm starting to wonder if that's why so many Melbourne fish stores caution against using aragonite; perhaps they're also using the blue crystals.






When I had aragonite (and dolomite some years prior) in a mesh bag in the filter, it kept the pH around 6.6 which was my aim. The GH did not rise much at all, which I didn't want (soft water fish). When I had the substrate composed of dolomite (aragonite is much the same thing and more attractive) it raised the GH and pH sufficient that I had livebearers for several years, and even a tank of rift lake cichlids. This was back in the 1980's and I didn't measure GH back then, but I would expect the GH was certainly adequate for the fish since they lived for several years. I cannot remember what the pH got up to, but I didn't fuss over it so long as it was in the high 7's or higher, and I remember it was that.

The GH is the most critical aspect here, as livebearers must have calcium and magnesium in the water in order that their physiology can function normally. In soft water they will be debilitated, weakened, and slowly die. I would use a calcareous substrate, as it is the most inexpensive, is reliable and lasts for years and years.

On the Flourite appearance, this would be quite different under water and certain light, I found out. It was not black but a dark grey, and every bit of detritus showed up. I tried it, but it didn't work, it harmed the fish, the plants didn't benefit...why bother?

Byron.


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