Neon dwarf rainbowfish bloated and staying near surface.

[Kaden West]

Hello all,

I'm a new member here and this is my first post, so I apologize if I'm in the wrong forum or if I mess anything up! I currently have a 75g planted aquarium that I started about a month ago. I thought that I let the tank cycle long enough, but it's been having some problems.

When I first thought the tank was done cycling, I added a light stock of 8 neon dwarf rainbowfish and some small snails. The NDR's were 7 females and 1 male. About a week ago, I had a small ammonia spike and one of my female NDR's became bloated and started gasping near the surface. It only took about 3 days and it died. I did a water change and have been watching my fish closely and now 1 more female is showing early symptoms of bloating and gasping at the surface. Now, there seems to be 2 very small babies swimming around the tank, so at one point the NDR's had babies. At first I didn't know if the bloating had to do with that, but it seems like this is something more serious. It didn't look like either fish had scales sticking up.

As for feeding, my fish are kind of stupid. Whenever I walk by the tank they'll get excited for food, but as soon as I open the lid to feed them they get scared and hide. Because of this, they never realize that I put food in there so they don't end up eating much. I typically feed tropical fish flakes. I was planning on getting some dither fish to help the NDR's become more comfortable, but I don't wanna get more fish if there's a bug going around the tank.

Any help would be appreciated, thank you!

 

[Naughts]

Hi,
You're in the right place
Do you have a test kit? If yes, please can you give us the current test results?
If the tank isn't cycled (which involves adding ammonia and takes several weeks/ OR heavy planting with active plant growth), then the ammonia will be rising daily as the fish breath, urinate and poop as well as from any uneaten food. So the water changes will need to be done daily/ every other day depending on the readings.
The ammonia has probably reduced their appetite but if you can get live food that might be a better alternative to flake for now as it won't add quite as much ammonia if they don't eat it all.
Please can you post a photo of the sick fish? I'd also be interested in a photo of the fry if you can ?

 

[Kaden West]

Hi,
You're in the right place
Do you have a test kit? If yes, please can you give us the current test results?
If the tank isn't cycled (which involves adding ammonia and takes several weeks/ OR heavy planting with active plant growth), then the ammonia will be rising daily as the fish breath, urinate and poop as well as from any uneaten food. So the water changes will need to be done daily/ every other day depending on the readings.
The ammonia has probably reduced their appetite but if you can get live food that might be a better alternative to flake for now as it won't add quite as much ammonia if they don't eat it all.
Please can you post a photo of the sick fish? I'd also be interested in a photo of the fry if you can ?

Hi Naughts,

My apologies for taking so long to get back to you, and thank you for replying! I just did a water test and these are the results that I got:

-PH: 6.6-6.8
-Ammonia: 0 but creeping towards .25ppm
-Nitrite: 0
-Nitrate: 0

I did a 50% water change 2 days ago if that makes any difference. I've also included 3 videos below. The first video is the currently sick fish. It doesn't look too bad in the video, but it's slightly bloated and will oftentimes lag behind the other fish. I found him this morning at the top of the tank gasping.
Current fish

The second video is for the fish babies. Funnily enough, I was looking for the fry to record them for you, and I noticed that there are 4 babies now! I thought there were only 2. The video shows 3 of them, the 4th is too small for the camera. Fry

Lastly, here is this video of the old fish that died. Maybe it will give some clues. Old fish

 

[Naughts]

Cute fry

I recommend a water change tomorrow to bring the ammonia back to zero, then monitor daily for a few weeks. Any time it's above zero, do a water change.

Do you know the GH and KH of the water?

The fish are definitely sick as I had these symptoms in new dwarf neon rainbows in cycled tanks, one or two developed it after a number of weeks too. I'm sorry I don't know the cause and I didn't manage to save mine. I tried aquarium salt thinking it might be previous gill damage and NT Labs Anti-Fluke and De-wormer thinking it might be gill flukes. Neither worked for me but I hope you have better luck.

@Colin_T or @Lajos_Detari are good on illnesses and there are many other members that may be able to advise.

Great tank BTW!

 

[betta fish]

I've also had this happen to me, I tried with them twice as they are so beautiful but both times I eventually lost them all displaying same the symptoms.
I also got fry that I managed to grow into adults but they too succumbed to the same thing. I won't get them again for this reason, although I am not sure what causes it, perhaps they are just weak or inbred, a bit like dwarf gouramis, can't keep them either

 

[Naughts]

I've also had this happen to me, I tried with them twice as they are so beautiful but both times I eventually lost them all displaying same the symptoms.
I also got fry that I managed to grow into adults but they too succumbed to the same thing. I won't get them again for this reason, although I am not sure what causes it, perhaps they are just weak or inbred, a bit like dwarf gouramis, can't keep them either

How hard is your water @betta fish ?

 

[AquaBarb]

Dont mean to dampen things further but I also had similar problems with my dwarf neons about 3 years ago. Lost my group of 12 over a 10 month period. Mine had similar symptoms of TB with bloating etc which Rainbows are sadly more prone to than most other fish.

Fingers crossed its a different story for your lovely fish

 

[Colin_T]

Rainbowfish are serial spawners, meaning they lay a few eggs each day over an extended period of time. The fish have been breeding in the tank and you will probably get fry for the next week or two, or as long as the adults are healthy and breeding.

Some rainbowfish regularly carry Fish Tuberculosis (TB) and this cannot be cured. The symptoms include: Fish stop eating and bloat up overnight. They do a stringy white poop. Breath heavily near the surface or by a filter outlet. Die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms.

Assuming the water quality is good, and it appears to be apart from the pH that could be up a bit, but it's not a major issue, the most likely cause of death is an internal problem, either fish TB or another type of internal bacterial infection.

If the fish have stopped eating, bloated up overnight, done a stringy white poop, and are gasping at the surface, euthanise the fish.

Once TB is in the tank it is there until you scrap the tank and disinfect everything. The baby fish might be free of it currently but will probably pick it up in the near future. You can try moving the babies to a clean container to rear them up and scrap the old tank and disinfect everything in it. You usually kill the adult fish when you scrap the tank otherwise they keep shedding TB into the tank.

It might not be TB, but there's a chance it is.

Some people will leave the adult fish to breed and transfer the babies into clean containers and when the last adults die, then they disinfect the main tank and keep the young that are generally free of the disease. But you have to keep everything separate between the adult and baby tanks otherwise the bacteria can be transferred across.

This is probably not what you want to hear as a new fish keeper and really screws up the hobby for you.

Personally, I would euthanise any fish that develop the symptoms and transfer the babies (with as little of the tank water as possible) into new containers and grow them up. When you have a nice group of 100 young, kill the adults, scrap the tank and start again using the young fish you reared up.

To transfer the babies, scoop them out in a small plastic container and use a spoon to scoop them out of the container. Tip as much water out of the spoon as possible and then put the baby fish into a new tank or plastic storage container to grow up.

 

[Kaden West]

Cute fry

I recommend a water change tomorrow to bring the ammonia back to zero, then monitor daily for a few weeks. Any time it's above zero, do a water change.

Do you know the GH and KH of the water?

The fish are definitely sick as I had these symptoms in new dwarf neon rainbows in cycled tanks, one or two developed it after a number of weeks too. I'm sorry I don't know the cause and I didn't manage to save mine. I tried aquarium salt thinking it might be previous gill damage and NT Labs Anti-Fluke and De-wormer thinking it might be gill flukes. Neither worked for me but I hope you have better luck.

@Colin_T or @Lajos_Detari are good on illnesses and there are many other members that may be able to advise.

Great tank BTW!

Ok, I'll definitely try to squeeze in a water change tomorrow and from here on I'll keep a close eye on the tank. I don't currently know the GH and KH. Thank you so much for all your advice! I apologize for responding so late, I'm currently in finals week for school and I have a paper due tomorrow :').

 

[Kaden West]

I've also had this happen to me, I tried with them twice as they are so beautiful but both times I eventually lost them all displaying same the symptoms.
I also got fry that I managed to grow into adults but they too succumbed to the same thing. I won't get them again for this reason, although I am not sure what causes it, perhaps they are just weak or inbred, a bit like dwarf gouramis, can't keep them either

Man, well I guess I'll just have to try and do my best taking care of them and see what happens. Sorry you lost yours too. If all of mine don't make it either then I'll probably follow in your footsteps and steer clear of buying them again, despite them being pretty cool.

 

[Kaden West]

Dont mean to dampen things further but I also had similar problems with my dwarf neons about 3 years ago. Lost my group of 12 over a 10 month period. Mine had similar symptoms of TB with bloating etc which Rainbows are sadly more prone to than most other fish.

Fingers crossed its a different story for your lovely fish

Man I'm sorry to hear that, and thank you

 

[Kaden West]

Rainbowfish are serial spawners, meaning they lay a few eggs each day over an extended period of time. The fish have been breeding in the tank and you will probably get fry for the next week or two, or as long as the adults are healthy and breeding.

Some rainbowfish regularly carry Fish Tuberculosis (TB) and this cannot be cured. The symptoms include: Fish stop eating and bloat up overnight. They do a stringy white poop. Breath heavily near the surface or by a filter outlet. Die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms.

Assuming the water quality is good, and it appears to be apart from the pH that could be up a bit, but it's not a major issue, the most likely cause of death is an internal problem, either fish TB or another type of internal bacterial infection.

If the fish have stopped eating, bloated up overnight, done a stringy white poop, and are gasping at the surface, euthanise the fish.

Once TB is in the tank it is there until you scrap the tank and disinfect everything. The baby fish might be free of it currently but will probably pick it up in the near future. You can try moving the babies to a clean container to rear them up and scrap the old tank and disinfect everything in it. You usually kill the adult fish when you scrap the tank otherwise they keep shedding TB into the tank.

It might not be TB, but there's a chance it is.

Some people will leave the adult fish to breed and transfer the babies into clean containers and when the last adults die, then they disinfect the main tank and keep the young that are generally free of the disease. But you have to keep everything separate between the adult and baby tanks otherwise the bacteria can be transferred across.

This is probably not what you want to hear as a new fish keeper and really screws up the hobby for you.

Personally, I would euthanise any fish that develop the symptoms and transfer the babies (with as little of the tank water as possible) into new containers and grow them up. When you have a nice group of 100 young, kill the adults, scrap the tank and start again using the young fish you reared up.

To transfer the babies, scoop them out in a small plastic container and use a spoon to scoop them out of the container. Tip as much water out of the spoon as possible and then put the baby fish into a new tank or plastic storage container to grow up.

Hey Colin,

Thank you for your in-depth response. Although you're right, this news isn't the greatest to hear, I'm actually glad that I now have some sort of idea of what I might be dealing with. The symptoms that you mentioned are pretty spot-on with what my fish are experiencing. I think what I'll do is I'll try to raise the fry in a separate area and just let the adults live out their lives, however long that might be.

I do have some questions though, if you don't mind.

1) Can fish TB be transferred to other types of fish or is this specific to NDR's? In other words, would it be stupid to add other fish in this tank?

2) Can you elaborate on disinfecting the tank, if that time comes?

3) Does a 5 gallon bucket work to raise the fry or would that be a little inhumane? I'd stick an air stone and a heater inside the bucket and keep the water clean, but I know a bucket isn't exactly ideal.

Again, thank you

 

[Colin_T]

Make sure your fish get plenty of plant matter in their diet. At least half their diet should be plant based.

If you want good rainbowfish, contact Gary Lange at the American Rainbowfish Association. They have a Facebook page too. He should be able to provide you with eggs or put you in contact with someone who has healthy fish they can sell/ supply you.

 

[betta fish]

How hard is your water @betta fish ?

It is classed as hard here, a ph of 7.6-7.8 here is a water quality report.

 

[Colin_T]

1) Can fish TB be transferred to other types of fish or is this specific to NDR's? In other words, would it be stupid to add other fish in this tank?

Unfortunately, Fish TB can be transmitted to any fish, snail or shrimp that goes into that tank. It can also be transferred from tank to tank via water, plants, ornaments, filters & filter media, and gravel.

If the fish do have Fish TB, then it's in the tank and you don't want to put anything else in there. You also want to keep any equipment used in the tank completely separate from all your other tanks, fish, and fish keeping equipment.

2) Can you elaborate on disinfecting the tank, if that time comes?

If the fish all die the same way, it is pretty much certain they have Fish TB. To disinfect the tank and equipment you boil anything that can be boiled (gravel, rocks, wood) and put it into clean containers after that.

Anything plastic can be soaked in straight household bleach for an hour or more and then rinsed well under tap water, then left to dry in the sun. Put that in a clean bucket after it is dry.

When you have removed everything from the aquarium, empty it and carry it outside. Rinse it out with a hose. Set it up outside in a shady place. Have the tank on its stand and fill it with tap water. Add granulated swimming pool chlorine and put the lid/ cover on the tank. Let it sit for a few hours. Then drain and rinse it out with tap water. After that is should be clean.

Live plants either get thrown away or soaked in bleach. However, the bleach tends to kill plants pretty quickly so most people just bury or burn them.

*NB* Never use bleach or chlorine indoors. If you have to use it indoors, make sure there is lots of ventilation and airflow in the room and try to get everyone outside for a few hours so they don't inhale the fumes.

*NB* Always wear safety glasses and rubber gloves when using bleach. If possible, wear a respirator and plastic apron or overalls to stop any bleach getting on your clothes and to stop you inhaling the fumes, which are poisonous.

3) Does a 5 gallon bucket work to raise the fry or would that be a little inhumane? I'd stick an air stone and a heater inside the bucket and keep the water clean, but I know a bucket isn't exactly ideal.

A 5 gallon bucket is fine for rearing up fry for the first month or two. I used them and them moved the fry into 50 gallon plastic storage containers. You don't have to use 50 gallon, just use something that can hold as much water as possible.


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Because your tank might have Fish TB, you have to treat the tank as if it does. The Fish TB is in the same genus (Mycobacteria) as the bacteria that cause Leprosy and Tuberculosis in our lungs. The Fish TB bacteria cannot cause you to get lung TB or Leprosy, but it can get into open wounds and cause a localised infection called a granuloma. These have to be treated with the correct antibiotics otherwise they can spread and if left untreated for a long time (many years) you can lose the limb or worse.

Fortunately very few people get Fish TB and most of those have underlying health issues and a weakened immune system (heart or lung problems, cancer, diabetes, really old people and very young, etc). The average person will never get Fish TB.

If you have cuts or scratches (open wounds) on your hands or arms, do not put them in the tank or get aquarium water on them.

After you work in the aquarium, wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water to wash off any possible bacteria.

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If you get a sore that isn't healing normally, see a doctor and tell them your fish have Fish TB. Get them to take a swab of the wound and send it off to a lab for culturing and testing. When you get the results back, then take an appropriate medication for the particular infection.

The doctor will probably try to put you on antibiotics straight away. However, do not let them until they have taken a swab, sent it off for culture, and got the results back.

People have been put on multiple antibiotics in an attempt to treat these infections and ended up with drug resistant bacteria. So they need to get a swab, culture the bacteria in a lab, test it with different medications, and then send the results to your doctor, who can then prescribe the correct medication for you.

In the mean time, you can try raw honey on wounds that aren't healing. It might or might not work but is something you can try while waiting for the lab test results. You just apply raw honey (honey that hasn't been heat treated/ cooked) to the wound and wrap it in a tissue or disposable bandage. Twice a day you remove the bandage and wash the wound with soapy water. Dry the wound. Then re-apply more honey. Then bandage it up again. The bandage is more to stop the honey going everywhere.

You use a non stick bandage so the skin around the wound doesn't get damaged when you remove the bandage. If the skin gets damaged, the bacteria can jump to the damaged tissue and infect that, making the wound worse.

I used a tissue and wrapped it around the fingers that were infected, then used tape over the outside of the tissue. The tape held it all together but didn't stick to the skin, so there was no damage to the skin when the tissue was removed. The old tissue was thrown in the bin, I washed the wounds, dried them, re-applied honey and put a new tissue on them with some new tape.

I didn't have Fish TB but I was bitten by a white tail spider and they have another species of Mycobacteria on their fangs that causes the tissue and muscle to rot away (flesh eating bacteria).

Honey is something you can try and it might work but might not. But it's worth trying before going onto antibiotics and while you wait for the lab test results.